TRUST ME I KNOW WHAT I'm DOING

Shireen Hafeez (00:00)
I didn't create the organization with the idea that it should scale. It was the natural organic demand to scale that happened. It was because a teacher in one school had another friend in another school that found out about the program. And then they called us from North Carolina and then the Atlanta area.

than the Florida school for the deaf and this school for the deaf and that school for the deaf. And the word spread like fire.

Abhay (00:25)
what did you personally have to unlearn or let go of in order for this process to blossom a

Shireen Hafeez (00:33)
If my child is going to break the mold and not be a statistic, the number one quality that I had to embed in him was a belief system in himself.

if you can take ownership of what makes you different, then you are unstoppable.

Hi, I'm Shereen Hafeez and I am the founder of Deaf Kids Code.

and this is Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing.

Abhay (01:27)
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Abhay (01:47)
Welcome

everybody to this episode of Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. Now, periodically on Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing, we share a spotlight conversation and feature brief chats with an individual from the community about a special topic or a unique endeavor. And for this episode, I want to focus on why it's so important to empower those who have been marginalized and left out of areas that are growing and expanding, and the people who are accelerating that empowerment, particularly.

And that's why I'm so pleased to share some time with Shireen Hafiz, the founder of Deaf Kids Code. Shireen has been tirelessly working to both build digital skills for students who are hearing impaired and also advocate for greater opportunities economically and socially. Shireen founded Deaf Kids Code in 2015 to promote computer science, tech, and design thinking skills

And help bridge that equity and access gap in a rapidly evolving digital world. What started as a journey of support for her own son, who is deaf, turned into a mission to turn visual spatial talent into high-demand STEM skills, empowering tens of thousands of youth on the deaf spectrum to become the architects of tomorrow's technology. Shireen thanks so much for joining me, and it's so nice to share a chat with you today.

Shireen Hafeez (03:06)
Thank you for having me.

Abhay (03:07)
You know, to start, when you started this, I know you found yourself, as many of us parents do, trying to help solve a personal series of challenges for your child. And when we get in those situations, we really want to make sure we do our best. When did you realize that?

This was an issue that deserved scale and scope beyond your own household. Maybe you can walk us through that sort of epiphany quickly of how that went from a household problem you're trying to solve to something that you wanted to scale and build for others in the community.

Shireen Hafeez (03:46)
I think that is foundational to who I am. so from the time that my own son was diagnosed, he had no language at the age of four, no measurable language. So he was a late diagnosis. And that was the entry point to exposing why there are so many gaps and why the outcomes,

are so dismal for so many people within the community. My son gets diagnosed and it is recommended that he would benefit from hearing aids. The World Health Organization, the Department of Health, literally every agency within that umbrella recognizes that hearing loss is a medical condition.

there's even at that time, mountains and tons of data points that showed that children with a certain level of hearing loss have positive outcomes with early amplification. So

Abhay (04:49)
Hm. Yes.

Shireen Hafeez (04:50)
at that time, I thought we had like dynamite health insurance and I thought, okay, no worries. So I call up our insurance company and say, hey,

This is the diagnosis, and my son needs hearing aids. And their response to me was that, I'm sorry. aids are considered cosmetic device. It's considered a cosmetic device. Yes, you heard that correctly. Cosmetic.

Abhay (05:16)
What what year was that, by the way?

Shireen Hafeez (05:19)
That was around 2008.

So that was my first slap in the face I realized that there really wasn't like a tight grip on the data of this diagnosis in the state. Now imagine that you have data points on virtually everything.

But for this particular community, though the universal hearing screening existed in the state, there still didn't seem to be some good, strong collection. So I became a part of a parent-run grassroots effort in the state where we helped track that data.

We helped with parent advocacy, training other parents about the Students with Disabilities Act and helping them build a roadmap of how they're going to go from diagnosis to becoming strong advocates for their child. And so I found myself at the front lines of those trenches,

learning for myself, but also being able to pass on valuable information and knowledge.

you know, and then you're like, trying to fight for air You know, I mean, what I often equate that experience of having a child diagnosed with anything is like,

driving in extreme fog with zero visibility and no GPS and you're just going by instinct. are the subject matter expert of your child, but you do rely on having

professional advice, but a professional advisor is limited because they're not living with your child and they don't know them the way you know them. So that was my first entry point into the world of advocacy. Head first.

Abhay (07:16)
As you went from that spot of fighting and advocating and trying to really find in a way the kind of justice of being seen and and being heard and then having the opportunities, when did you make that sort of pivot from being parent to being leader to you know taking this now into Deaf Kids Code?

Shireen Hafeez (07:42)
Well, there was a step before that.

After being in the advocacy group for a couple of years and having a good amount of data, I took myself out of that organization and I decided that I'm going to lobby the legislature for an insurance mandate to cover hearing aids for babies and children in the state. And

Abhay (08:05)
Mm. Yeah.

Shireen Hafeez (08:06)
it wasn't a matter of our own affordability or not. It was the injustice of it all.

And interestingly enough,

I think just the universe conspired in our favor in so many ways because I knew we had the data and the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, I went to battle with him and he was like, we don't do insurance mandates in this state. I am not pro-mandate. Now I'm like, well, do a legislative study.

because you sure cover bariatric surgery, you cover infertility. you look at how many people from the community end up on, public benefits versus maybe they could have a shot of higher education attainment, higher employment attainment. So you have like a financial and fiscal incentive to want to make that happen to get a return of that investment.

because I knew that we had already been collecting that data. So I knew that if I said, well, let's propose a legislative study for 19 years and younger and see what you come up with. And then that's how, so my son like, you know, handed the pen for the signing of that amendment when it went into motion. So that was like, that was incredible.

So then when I started DeafKids Code, and the reason I started that was because by that time,

I had worked so closely with so many families of such high potential kids, brilliant, amazing children such as my own. And I felt like the employment outcomes are so dismal and so like pathetic and workforce development for children with disabilities has not made leaps and bounds.

Like we have not made leaps and bounds. now we are, so we're talking from 2008, which was our diagnosis, our family's diagnosis, the outcomes were really bad. And now recently, the Bureau of Labor Statistics came out with, a recent data point that says that 75 % of people with disabilities are

out of the job market.

Abhay (10:27)
Mm. Yeah.

Shireen Hafeez (10:28)
In 2026, we have 75 % unemployment.

Abhay (10:34)
Yeah. Truly unacceptable.

Shireen Hafeez (10:34)
So it

is so unacceptable. And again, it's because the ecosystem doesn't exist because once a kid is pushed through the education system and they graduate, schools don't track them.

Who's tracking what happens to them? Like you have to figure that out. Maybe you go into, you you get adopted by like voc rehab systems, but they are not really incentivized to have like remarkable outcomes. And I don't see a whole lot of training to modernize the knowledge and I don't see that cohesion. So there are so many pitfalls.

from point A to point B that no wonder the outcomes have not evolved. And that bypasses political party because there is no political party that has created this miraculous ecosystem that's like, this is an easy one to solve. We're going to take all these people and put them in apprenticeship programs. That doesn't exist because every state has their own dynamic and every city

has their own dynamic of resources. So there's so many complexities and nuances with that. So Deaf Kids Code is defiance of those systems.

Abhay (11:58)
let me ask you a quick question. you know, Def

Kids Code growing out of that defiance, growing into a space of opportunity, trying

Shireen Hafeez (12:06)
Yeah.

Abhay (12:07)
to now serve what I think is over 18,000 participants in the US with a global footprint as well. When

Shireen Hafeez (12:15)
Yeah.

Abhay (12:16)
parents and teachers and employers hear that number of 75% unemployed or underemployed or out of the job market.

Shireen Hafeez (12:25)
Yeah.

Abhay (12:26)
and they learn about your work, what are they, what do they find most surprising about that? I mean, I would imagine that as an employer, as an educator, as someone who's trying to skill build, for someone out there hearing that statistic, I imagine, I hope that there is a little bit of embarrassment and shock. And again, this idea of unacceptability, but then translating that into action,

How do you help frame this in a way that then becomes, a call to action now for for some of these leaders when you have conversations with them?

Shireen Hafeez (13:02)
I have been having these conversations for quite a while and I think there is just a lack of interest or people see the disability community as an otherness. They see it as an us versus them. And that is the arrogance of human beings.

that have not faced anything, though they surely will because we are human beings and we are bound to have injury, a diagnosis, mishap, something or another, but surely age

Abhay (13:40)
Age Yep.

Shireen Hafeez (13:42)
or anyone 65 and over, at least almost 50 % of the population has acquired some type of disability.

in some way, or form, whether it's cognitive, physical.

Abhay (14:29)
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Abhay (15:24)
Well, so

with that, with that arrogance that you just described, or even just the failure to and even the apathy around the topic, how how do you help people and steer them, specifically those who are in positions of power, how do you steer them towards this idea of, know, mutual benefit, of, of community benefit, of not just

engaging with a community that has been overlooked, but to remind that, the benefits to this community actually benefit us all.

Shireen Hafeez (15:59)
The biggest issue is the lack of belief.

Abhay (16:05)
Mm.

Shireen Hafeez (16:06)
This is the biggest issue. This is the biggest dilemma that community faces when they hear the word disability. It's automatically associated with something negative rather than, you know, looking at it as an alternative way to go through this world.

a way that is different than the way I go through this world. so we do programming, free, no cost. And what we're doing is we are providing an immersive experience that otherwise these students would have never had. They won't have it. It'll never happen for them because of so many layers of

nuances like maybe the student has to be in a special classroom, maybe they have to be in therapies. And so when you talk about STEM-based classes, which are very powerful and very important, there's a lot of data that says that they are the last or never. It just never comes to them. so that's what makes

passing on information, passing on knowledge, providing an experience that is to change your own belief system. And so when people ask us, what exactly is it? What would you say if you were to encompass everything that Deaf Kids Code does? It is selling a belief system more than anything else. Because,

Abhay (17:39)
Yeah. It's a lot of culture change.

Shireen Hafeez (17:43)
yes, because, and it's more for the child and for

the teacher who is going to be leading these students, that everybody should come away being a believer. That it's like, okay, like I thought you had to be amazing at math. or you had to be this kind of a student in order to qualify to learn hardware and engineering or like to build an app. Like I didn't know that you know, you could, that our students could do that.

And this is actually the biggest component of why we have scaled. I didn't create the organization with the idea that it should scale. It was the natural organic demand to scale that happened. It was because a teacher in one school had another friend in another school that found out about the program. And then they called us from North Carolina and then North Carolina, the Atlanta area.

school for the deaf than the Florida school for the deaf and this school for the deaf and that school for the deaf. And the word spread like fire.

And we have still been able to maintain the model to not charge anything for a Deaf Kids Code program to come into any school. So schools, institutions,

Abhay (18:59)
Yeah. Which is amazing.

Shireen Hafeez (19:02)
educators, parents, pay nothing to bring a Deaf Kids Code experience into their school.

Part of our model is not just that one of our values

is zero barrier to access, but the other thing is that because we are free, we request that teachers are engaged to learn alongside the students.

So that recipe has been very powerful because most teachers that are being relied upon to teach are not subject matter experts.

Abhay (19:43)
Right. Right.

Shireen Hafeez (19:45)
So that has created also the domino effect where we have schools that have started robotics clubs. They've started a STEM lab, a maker space. They'll have an hour during the lunchtime or they'll start a club. So this is how the rippling effects have occurred.

Abhay (20:06)
And I and I imagine that those visual spatial skills that are unearthed and discovered by those students, and then the teachers and the educators and the administrators and the leaders who are in this ecosystem, I can almost guarantee that those students who are making it through those programs themselves are now being cultivated as leaders of change So

Have you had particular kind of feedback or or stories that are showing that this loop is being closed? Or for that matter, while there's a lot of work to do to close those gaps, the products and the students and the now new leaders who are making it through these programs are the ones who are engineering and are and being the architects of that change and of that cultural shift that you're talking about.

Shireen Hafeez (20:59)
Yes, but it's still not enough because we have hosted programming in over 70 locations across the country and in parts of the world. Sometimes there are regional disadvantages. You know, if you are in Corpus Christi, who is going to run out of drinking water in less than a year, there's a lot of

a of other problems, a lot of other issues and things that are pressing it depends on the region. So we do a lot of programming in Michigan. And Michigan has made a lot of investments in apprenticeship programs. And they...

they seem to be a fiscally healthier, in a healthier position where they're able to provide more support in their ecosystems versus someone who may be in a rural location in Georgia

So there are some regional advantages and disadvantages. And I think that, again, it's on a more micro level that you see the results of that. So we had interviewed over a dozen students from across the country. We had a partnership with a tech company that was

wanting to hold a few spots for students that we serve. And one of the students is a university student and she's studying data science. And she had asked me at the end of the interview that, you remember me? And I was like, have we met before?

She goes, yes, you did programming at my school in Colorado. And that experience is what led me to study data science because I had never had that experience before. And moments like that, Abe,

Abhay (23:01)
Yeah.

Shireen Hafeez (23:02)
is the most humbling and incredible thing. And I'm so lucky.

that I will get the most unbelievable emails or messages from people in saying how transformative, because it's not like we're coming in to save anyone. We're coming to...

tell you that you can do it. And what makes our model even more special is that our programming is led by incredible deaf role models. And they're not just like anybody. They're like computer scientists, they're engineers, and they have their own incredible stories of adversity. So nobody can pass on knowledge.

more than someone like I always tell our team that be the person you wish you had in your life. And if you're tired of being the only, you know, engineer or the deaf, you know, know, UX, UI designer, then this is your chance to evangelize greatness to the next generation. This is your moment. that's what's so beautiful about it, you know, is that

is that it is community-led. It's not me, a speaking, hearing person telling them what I believe they are, but you have someone from within the community saying that you can aspire the way I aspired, like don't have limited beliefs in yourself.

Abhay (24:35)
Yeah, so it's a you're right. It's a process of inspiration and hopefully a cycle of evangelism that is visible because of the products and the role models and and the heroes that are out there. You and I were just talking a little bit before we started about our common connection of being Indian American. And and I wanted to ask, you know, from the broader level.

as an Indian American, as someone who doesn't necessarily have a tech background, as someone who didn't have experiences as a founder and thought that a movement like this was going to scale and spiral into something that was greater than themselves, what did you personally have to unlearn or let go of in order for this process to blossom a little bit?

Shireen Hafeez (25:28)
So...

You know, I think most people from our background, South Asian, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lankan, like we come from communities that adherently have a negative association with disabilities. We don't talk about it.

we don't even, we don't even expose it. You know, this is the tragedy. Like I'll have well-meaning friends whose children are in high school and they're looking to boost their resume. And they'll reach out to me saying that, you know, can my kid volunteer for your organization?

I'm like, well, what would they like to do? Because my kids don't need to be saved by a hearing kid that has no skills. So what are they bringing to the table? They don't know American Sign Language. They have zero experience with our community and other than just looking for an opportunity to boost their resume. So things like that are just like...

infuriating. mean, it's so insulting, you know, that is like so arrogant that like, why would you think like, so again, it's like this, if anything, our kids could probably smoke out any competition, given the chance, you know, it's like, if anything, they could probably teach your kid how to hustle and how your kid could be a better problem solver, not the other way around. You know, I mean, our kids could run circles around your kid, probably.

You know, but it's because of this arrogance that it's like, it's just it's so maddening. And I know that when my son was diagnosed, I was very open about it, which is something that was like kind of jolting to the people around us, because it's like it's like, like and they're whispering. And I'm like, we have to whisper. You know, I mean, I'm sure if you.

Unpeel the layers in your own family. I'm sure there are many people that also have some type of diagnosis or disability. Like, you know,

Abhay (27:42)
Correct.

Shireen Hafeez (27:43)
it's it's not a bad word. It's not a shameful word. Like, it's OK to to say the word, you know, that my kid is autistic or my kid is legally blind or my child has a, dyslexia or something like that or my child wears a prosthetic.

it's nothing that you have to whisper about. It's nothing that you have to whisper about,

If my child is going to break the mold and not be a statistic, the number one quality that I had to embed in him was a belief system in himself. Meaning

Abhay (28:23)
Mm.

Shireen Hafeez (28:24)
that if you can own, if you can take ownership of what makes you different, then you are unstoppable.

Abhay (28:33)
And we in our community are not always so willing and open to be empathetic and understand and listen more as opposed to wanting to either find a problem to be solved and think that you know we're in a position to save or we're in a position always to solve.

Where in fact the biggest opportunity we have

Shireen Hafeez (29:01)
Yes.

Abhay (29:01)
is to listen, to grow, to understand, and for that matter, to partner and to integrate into that problem

Shireen Hafeez (29:07)
Yeah. Yeah.

Abhay (29:09)
solving in in a way that is not obstructive. I want to ask you one other thing, and that is, you know, we live in an age right now where AI is transforming everything around us. And

Shireen Hafeez (29:20)
Yeah.

Abhay (29:21)
for the systems that you are building.

And

for those who are on the Deaf Spectrum, how is AI changing your work?

Shireen Hafeez (29:30)
It's doing incredible things, but it can also do damaging things. So we're at the very beginning of this AI frontier. we actually three years ago have embedded like AI literacy into our curriculum. And very recently we have launched an expansion initiative called AI disability, which means that

whatever we're building, whatever we're doing, we believe that we are stronger collectively, that everybody with different lived experiences should be banned together because more than ever before, we need people from within the community being the leaders, being the innovators, knowing how to utilize, cultivate, and adjust these tools that

could cause unintended harm to our community, but how it also can help bypass barriers that have been baked in unintentionally. we know that the majority of the people building and leading these technologies that are scrubbing the data and putting it into these models are probably from

a pretty homogenized community. There's a good chance they're men. There's a good chance they're from a certain privileged class. And there is a very, very good chance that they don't have a disability. And so when you're building these models, you're not thinking of the other nuances that perhaps could be very detrimental or could cause unintended harm.

so, so AI disability is meant to be like a coalition to push back on, on, on things so that we know that we're banded together, that we are in it together, that, you know, that we are stronger as a collective

Abhay (31:29)
And

I imagine, by the way, for the technology to be therefore accelerated and created but thoughtfully and with the deaf spectrum community or any disabled community, disability community involved and you know at the table helping to to build these systems.

Shireen Hafeez (31:50)
Yes, 100%. I mean, there are a small handful of people in the deaf community that are at the forefront of building certain accessibility tools that definitely will have beautiful and incredible impacts in the future. See, the motto is that build with the community, not for the community.

because that will lead to the most positive outcomes and results.

Abhay (32:24)
Absolutely. I I wanted to get you out of here on this one, and that is for all the work you're doing, all the evangelism. at the end, this is a cycle of parents and students and employees and employers, and at the same time there will be new cycles and generations of kids.

and families who are moving through this. And each one is going to look a little bit different. So, you know, comparing to when you first started this out, when you first learned of the diagnosis for your son, to being an advocate, to starting Deaf Kids Code, parents and teachers and employers who are learning about Deaf Kids Code today for the very first time, what's your message to them? What should they be curious about going forward?

Shireen Hafeez (33:14)
think that the curiosity should be, how can I benefit from the unleashing of this talent pool? That should be the curiosity. It should be one of ponder and wonder. should be like, someone with that kind of lived experience, how can we benefit? Like, how can we build a better product?

Like maybe their perspective on our team could be really valuable.

How can you navigate this world on a thousand more cylinders having to make so much more effort than other people and still have managed to thrive or contribute or participate in our world? That in itself is a testament.

because we have not created this world to be accessible or equal or democratized in terms of fair access to knowledge, fair access to physical places, fair access to conventions and conferences and education institutions, all of these pillars that are essential for upward mobility.

The question shouldn't be about the disability and shouldn't be like focused on that. It should be that How do we bridge the gap? You know, and I'll say this, like my own son had no measurable language at the age of four. And he just published his first academic research paper listed as a first author in

a notable academic journal. So where we started, to where we are, to who knows where he's going to go, but it was because you don't see that you are what you believe. You are what you believe. And my message to parents or you may have someone who you love that's going through this.

always remember that your child is going to be what you believe they are. And if you believe in their greatness, they will be great. But be very conscious of that energy that you are bringing and projecting onto your child. Your child is a square and is not going to fit in a circle. So go with the square. Build an environment

that fits a square. Don't look at that what is wrong with us. Challenge the systems you and never ever, ever accept any barriers.

Abhay (35:57)
well, building inspiration, allowing for parents and children and families to believe in themselves and and do the right thing. I know that so many are being inspired by all the work that you're doing. Shireen thank you so much for such an inspiring and and great conversation.

Shireen Hafeez (36:16)
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Abhay (36:20)
Hey, thanks so much, Shireen And please visit DeafKidscode.org to learn more and get involved. September is Deaf Awareness Month, and hope you can learn and grow and build more inclusion in our communities.

And as I learned today, I'm ready.

Shoutouts now to Varsha Dandekar for a life dedicated to working with children with special needs, to Tanuja Sheth for sparking this episode,

and to former guest Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi for always pushing to combat hate crimes against South Asians. Hope you can hit those subscribe buttons and share this with family and friends. Till next time, I'm Abhay Dandekar