TRUST ME I KNOW WHAT I'm DOING

Hi. I'm Neal Katyal. I'm the former acting solicitor general of the United States and a law professor at Georgetown, and you are listening to TRUST ME I KNOW WHAT I’m DOING. Yeah. My name is Abhay Dandekar, and I share conversations with talented and interesting individuals linked to the global Indian and South Asian community.

It's informal and informative, adding insights to our evolving cultural expressions, where each person can proudly say, trust me, I know what I'm doing. We're almost at election day here in the US. So these next few weeks onTRUST ME I KNOW WHAT I’m DOING, we're sharing a series of Lotus for POTUS conversations, hearing insights from leading edge voices to help inform and get out the vote. A few months ago, I created a meme with a photo of vice president Harris that went, in Sanskrit, Kamala means lotus. In America, Kamala means POTUS.

And for me and many others, that sentiment sums up the urgent choices we're making at the highest level, being thoughtful about our past, present, and future. As the question of what's at stake is such an important one to keep asking ourselves, we also know that from the beginning there has been a swirl of tangled questions surrounding the what ifs in a very close race and also involving a convicted felon who has used the legal system as a vindictive bludgeoning tool against the free and safe election process in a democracy. So particularly to help clarify some of these thoughts on the imperatives that we face, it was simply wonderful to chat with Neal Katyal, the former acting solicitor general of the United States. Neal is an attorney with expertise in constitutional, criminal, and intellectual property law, among so many other fields of expertise, and along with his prior experiences in the justice department as a national security adviser, he's argued 51 cases before the Supreme Court of the United States, more than any other minority lawyer in history. He's had deep experiences in some of the most significant trials in our country's history over the past 25 years, including the George Floyd murder trial, defending the voting rights act of 1965, the Trump travel ban, military trials at Guantanamo, and the election dispute of 2000 just to name a few.

Neal is a law professor at Georgetown, and along with being a respected scholar and prolific author, he seems to have won nearly every major legal award out there, and thankfully is a frequent news commentator. He also hosts a great podcast called Courtside designed to help inform the public and help explain a variety of court cases. So please go check that out. So in that spirit, it was great to catch up with him and talk about the upcoming election from his unique and superb perspective on Kamala Harris. And since he has mentioned in the past how he's an ardent believer in extreme centrism, I first wanted to know with this in mind, what was making him feel optimistic about the Harris Walz campaign?

Yeah. So I've known, the vice president since 2010 when I was at the justice department, and she was a California attorney general. And she was always sensible then. You know, the Democrats have oftentimes or some Democrats have not been as into law enforcement, but she was, and she's been a law enforcement officer for much of her life. So I think that kind of grounding as a prosecutor, as someone who stands up in court representing the largest state in the country and saying, you know, what you're doing is criminal, whether it be a violent crime, whether it be a bank, whatever.

That's what I wanna see in a president. I'm not very ideological, personally. I mean Yeah. I think I wanna see competence. I wanna see, really, an anti corruption bent to her, to any candidate.

Yeah. And I wanna see someone who's willing to think outside of the box and solve problems. If that means working with people on the other side, great. Whatever. And that's basically what I think we've seen with her.

I I think, you know, all indications are she's going to be a bit more centrist than, president Biden. I think we can see that, for example, in her stance on technology, in her stance on cryptocurrency, you know, in a whole host of areas. But, I'm really excited about her because, you know, those of us who've gotten to work with her, she's really smart and committed and principled and yet pragmatic. And, you know, that's what we should get in our leaders, and that's what I think we'll get if we get her. You've had a long standing relationship, working relationship now and gotten to, you know, see her in action.

And all the things you just mentioned, you sort of have had that vantage point. But for those who are maybe just getting to know her a little bit more and, you know, certainly, the last several months as she stepped into the nomination and having Americans become that much more familiar with her, what do you think people who are in that position, and are just getting to know more about Kamala Harris, what do you think they need to rapidly sort of learn, or for that matter, unlearn about her? I I think the most important thing, and I've just never seen anyone write about it, but she's a remarkably multidimensional person. Yeah. And she doesn't fit in a box.

And I don't mean that just like her racial heritage or anything like that. I mean, she is really truly someone who can understand and empathize with all sorts of people, whether it's someone who's lost their job, whether it's someone who's suffering because of a health care scare or a family member, a kid. I've seen how she is to my children. It's a really remarkable thing. This was really brought home to me last year.

She had a reception for African American artists at her residence. And it was everyone who's anyone. Cara Walker, Glenn Ligon, everyone in this entire community. Yeah. And it's one thing to put such a event together, which, of course, had never been done by the White House social secretary in the history of the United States.

Yeah. But it's another thing to watch what she did, which was talk fluently about every one of those artists who came. And she even brought us around in the house, and she's like, oh, here. This is Annette Clark, and this is why he painted it and this is not. And it was just like, you know, okay.

So she did that, and then we had a really serious talk about immigration and inflation. Like, she can kinda do it all, and she's not opposed. It's not like she's, you know, trying. You know, there were just a few of us. It was genuine and kinda awe inspiring to watch it.

So I don't really understand what happened with the White House in terms of her public presence, because she just wasn't allowed to be out there very much. And, you know, there are different theories about why, and I certainly think she's a loyal person. And, you know, vice president, sometimes, when they're told to stay in the background, they stay in the background. And Right. Unfortunately, I think that contributed to a certain view that she wasn't as much of a heavyweight.

And now one of the great things about president Biden's decision to not run is that the country gets to see her. And they see her as someone who's competent, who's capable, who's smart, who has joy in their life, who has love in their life. And by the way, all of those traits contrast markedly with her opponent. Very true. Yeah.

And, I mean, I think markedly with her opponent. Very true. Yeah. And I mean, I think I love how you put that. She lives at so many intersections, and she can empathize with all the different angles around there.

And I've been really struck with how easy it is to her not to not only to just flow with that intelligence and be very connected to just about everyone, but then on top of that, ask some incredibly important questions. And I always love how she's just constantly asking, are you okay? And really connecting with people. And and and along with that point, so I was privileged to be one of the prosecutors in the George Floyd murder. Yeah.

And we prosecuted Derek Chauvin and the others. And I saw her, right after the trial, and she asked me exactly that question. Are you okay? Now we had won the trial, of course, you know, and thankfully. But, like, she understood what those days were like Mhmm.

In which, you know, you're dealing with a family that had gone through so much, who had to watch that video over and over again in court. You're dealing with death threats among all of you know, to all of us as prosecutors. And then, of course, the heavy responsibility of thinking, if you lose this trial, there could be riots in every city. I mean, it's truly must win litigation. Yeah.

And she got that. And, it wasn't just like, oh, great job. You must be psyched. She understood. And, you know, that's just I really do think when we look for leadership, whether it's at a CEO level of a company or the presidency or whatever, one of the most important traits is empathy, of understanding what someone else is going through.

Because if you're a leader who surrounds yourself only with other rich people, you're not gonna be the president for or the CEO for the company, for the nation. You're gonna be for your friends. Yeah. And I'm really, really worried about that in this election. Yeah.

That empathy, that intellectual and sort of personal curiosity, I think that shines particularly for vice president Harris. You've had a front row seat, of course, to the legal process at the very highest levels. And, you know, our own South Asian community is often very prone to a lot of misinformation, especially in WhatsApp and those kinds of channels that can be sort of this, like, black hole that expands and gets worse. I'm curious for someone who has had that depth of expertise. Can you, in a way, help do some myth busting, especially when it comes to being in a close election?

And how do we even manage the expectations, the anxiety around the post election legal process? What's the basic message here for people to try and navigate through that? Well, well, first of all, I think you're right to be worried about what Donald Trump is going to do on November 5th. And we saw it in the after he got crushed in the debate against vice president Harris. I mean, first, he said he won.

He said the polls showed 90% that he won, and then he pivoted to, okay, the whole debate was rigged. And we're gonna see the same thing play out on November 5th. He's gonna declare victory no matter what the results are. And I suspect and fear that he's then gonna claim the whole thing's rigged and bring lawsuit after lawsuit. And there's a big difference with 2020 because now all you know, he's had 4 years with his team to go pro on all these election hoaxes.

And they've studied it. They've put people in place and state election boards and governors and other things who are inclined to believe the big lie. I mean, he's got a vice president who JD Vance, a vice presidential candidate, who can't even admit in the debate that he Trump lost in 2020. So they've told us the playbook. Yeah.

And that playbook can be dangerous because it could mean a court could decide the election, or it could mean a state governor could decide it or perhaps even the US Congress on January 6th. There's all sorts of possibilities. And I think the most important thing that I hope every one of your listeners stands up for is our right to vote. It's the most precious thing we have. It's why my parents came to this country.

Partly, you know, democracy is built into the fabric of our nation. And the idea that we're gonna let some rogue judge or rogue governor or members of congress do this is really it's, a, a very realistic possibility, and, b, a terrifying one. So Yeah. I I love that. I mean, that power, that individual power of voting and sort of reminding ourselves of that kind of voting compass, if you will.

Yeah. And if I could just you know, so there's 2 important things that we can do to prevent that. One is, you know, there are 7 states, the so called battleground states, in which the election's really close. And Trump lost most of them back in 2020. So even when he filed all those bogus lawsuits, at the end of the day, he had to run the table and win a lot of them Yeah.

Because Biden had, I think, 306 electoral votes, and he only needed 270. Because Trump needed to prevail in multiple places. And so even if you had judges or legislators or others who weren't up and up, he had to run the table. He couldn't do it. We have to make sure that happens again.

Yeah. You can't win by close margins. You gotta win each state by a lot, and then you gotta win a bunch of the battleground states. Right. The second thing is that the congress is given unique responsibilities on January 6th to count the electoral votes.

And they may be able to act in a rogue fashion and decide to disqualify a certain state's slate of electors, and perhaps even take the election and decide it themselves. Now this is the new congress on January 6th. It's not the votes. It's not the congress that we have right now. And so if you are concerned about this, very important to send people to Washington, in the house and in the senate, that are not gonna take your vote away.

And this isn't political. I don't mean it, I you know, on either side. Yeah. I just want people to respect the people in Washington, to respect the right of the people to select their leaders. You know, you bring up an important point about all the different down ballot elections that are going on.

And such an important, you know, reminder for all of us to pay attention everywhere. In in one aspect of things, after Dobbs and Chevron and the presidential immunity rulings this past summer, I mean, it I feel like there's been this erosion of faith that has transcended beyond, like, you know, how we how we trust or or how we have faith in in our institutions, and particularly the Supreme Court. As a political politically agnostic government institution, what can we do as a public to try and and have that rebuilt, especially when it seems like it's just taken so many hits? Right. I think, you know, all institutions have taken hits.

And people's faith in any of them, whether it's the New York Times, whether it's, you know, branch of government, state government, whatever, everything has taken a hit. But it is a particular sadness to me that the Supreme Court's taken ahead and all showing that the Supreme Court has its lowest favorability or legitimacy rating in our lifetimes. Some of that may be traced to the decisions that you're talking about. It is worrisome to me. I do think it's worth also noting, though, that this is a court that is fully capable of doing the right thing and has.

If you think back to 2020 and Trump's, you know, 62 lawsuits, the Supreme Court threw them out. Like, they didn't, you know, they didn't entertain that nonsense. I argued a case called Moore versus Harper last year, which had massive political overtones because if the Republican National Committee won that case, it could have entrenched Republican rule for decades. And so many of the people on the left were saying, oh, the Supreme Court is gonna totally destroy you, Neal, and destroy this position. Turns out, 6 to 3, they said no to the Republican National Committee.

So they are capable of doing it. I do worry that as, you know, Trump's strategy is quite clearly to bring cases to the US Supreme Court in the election of 2024. I do worry that no matter what the Supreme Court decides, that a large number of Americans are not going to have faith in it. That's where we are as a society. And that's different.

Like, I was a junior lawyer on, Al Gore's team in the 2000 election. And when he lost in the supreme court, I think it was December 12th, and immediately said to us that he was going to concede, You know, he wanted to concede because he said the supreme court has spoken. That's the final word in our country. Yeah. And there was just a lot more legitimacy around the court at that time than there is now.

And so I really do worry about the days to come. And if you're concerned about that, when you're concerned about government officials deciding than who the next president is, you gotta be very careful with your vote and make sure that it is, that, you know, the margins are strong enough in particularly in the battleground states. Yeah. I mean, it's an imperative all around. You and I are connected because we're proud Indian Americans.

In this particular case, how is, Kamala Harris's candidacy resonated with this part of your identity? And I I ask this a lot to people, like, you know, has it made you more patriotic as an American? It's hard for me to be more patriotic than I am because the country has given me so much, and I'm so grateful to it and to my parents for bringing us here. At the same time, yes. It is cool.

And I can tell you well before she ran, you know, in 2021 when she invited me in 2022 to their first Diwali party at the vice president's house. And you see these saris, and you see Gulab Jamun, and this and that in this, you know, incredibly historic building. Yeah. You know, that did move me. And it's moved me, you know, from 2010 on.

She'll say, how's your mom, auntie, and things like that. Yeah. And, you know, she understands what I the way I grew up. She understands my family. And, that's meaningful.

Again, I never thought I'd see a day where the vice president of the United States would have something like my own lived experience. Yeah. I was just so far from the realm of imagination, but she's such a trailblazer that she's made that happen. And I do wanna, like, speak directly to the Indian American community here because I have had the privilege of knowing her for now 15 14, 15 years, and this is someone who understands what we're going through. She understands it culturally.

She understands it economically. She understands even just like the trips that we took each year when we didn't have much money, but we'd scrounge it up so that we could go back and see our family in India. Yeah. She's just a totally human person, and she's someone who you can trust. And I don't think you can quite say that about the other guy.

Maybe you think your wallet's gonna, you know, be a little fatter or something like that, but I don't think that we came to this country in order to have a few more dollars. I think we came here because of the ideals of this country of freedom and liberty and anti corruption. And when you think of those values, I think that's what vice president Harris embodies. That resonates so powerfully for Indian Americans, South Asian Americans, for them that are all Americans. Because, again, her ability to connect with everyone's story.

You know, we clearly have one candidate who's a seasoned empath, a prosecutor, a legislator, an executive now, and one candidate who's a convicted felon. And unfortunately, still with the loyalty of nearly half the country. For now, you mentioned the word trust. Is there an imperative for those who certainly agree. And, you know, those who feel somehow tethered to Kamala Harris and her story.

Is there a message you have for those people who disagree with Kamala Harris and her policies? And those people who disagree with Kamala Harris and her policies? And those people who, you know, frankly, have not been on that side? Is there a message to listen to? Is there a message for engagement in some way to see that contrast a little bit more?

Absolutely. I think, you know, she's right on policies about tax, on inflation, on the economy generally, on foreign policy in Ukraine and the like. But I'm here to tell you, you know, this election is about more than some policy debates. It's about the constitutional soul of our country. And I would urge those people to take a look at what Dick Cheney or Liz Cheney or Mitt Romney or so many others have said, which is that there's something far more important in this election than a policy dispute.

It's about our core constitutional commitments. He's not just a felon. He's a felon accused of trying to overthrow an election and sow violence in the United States capital. He's not just divisive and a hater. He's someone who literally campaigned on the idea that we should be able to ban Muslims from this country.

He said, quote, I, Donald j Trump, am calling for a complete and total shutdown of all Muslim immigration to the United States. And he later said, quote, I think Islam hates us. And you all know what he did because you saw it that first weekend when he was president. He issued a Muslim ban. And, you know, I got to challenge that, you know, for year after year in court.

But this shouldn't be about courts. This should be, you know, the most obvious thing in the world. Think about our glorious first amendment. Congress shall make no law establishing a religion. You know, we've never had a religious test on who can come to our shores.

We said you can come to your shore our shores, and you can pray to whomever. We don't care. Yeah. But that's not Donald Trump. And his vision of America is not our founder's vision.

It's certainly not my parents' vision, and I suspect it's not the vision of anyone on this, who's listening to this whose parents came from India or or anywhere else in Asia. Yeah. Well, reminding us all of that, trying for everyone to see what that value compass is and, of course, all the imperatives that go along with it. Neal, thank you so much for joining us, and I hope we can chat with you and catch up with you down the road. I would hope so very much as well.

So thank you for having me. Remember, conversation is the antidote to apathy. Now all this is in the show notes, but I'll share it here too. Go to I will vote.com for information about resources, to desi president dotcom and south asians for harris2024.org, and to kamlaharris.com to learn directly about the Harris Waltz campaign. Please get involved, get engaged, and get informed about all your local issues and candidates up and down the ballot.

Till next time. I'm Abhay Dandekar.