TRUST ME I KNOW WHAT I'm DOING

My name is Anurima Bhargava. I've been a civil rights lawyer, a filmmaker, and someone who has always tried to pursue dignity and justice in our communities. And you're listening to Trust Me. I know what I'm doing.
My name is Abhay Dhandekar and I share conversations with talented and interesting individuals linked to the global Indian and South Asian community.

It's informal and informative, adding insights to our evolving cultural expressions where each person can proudly say, trust me, I know what I'm doing. So with the election upon us here in the US, these next few weeks on Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing, we're sharing a series of lotus for POTUS conversations, hearing insights from leading edge voices to help inform and get out the vote. A few months ago, I created a meme with a photo of vice president Harris that went, in Sanskrit, Kamala means lotus. In America, Kamala means lotus. And for me and many others, that sentiment sums up the imperative choice we're making at the highest level being thoughtful about our past, present, and future.

With liberty and justice for all, it's the last part of our national pledge and being an empowered voter in an American democracy means finding this implemented through our elected leaders. So it was great to catch up with Anurima Bhargav who's been a leader in promoting dignity and justice both at home and abroad and advancing civil rights for many, many stakeholders. Born and raised on the south side of Chicago, she's an experienced attorney who has worked to litigate cases on diversity and segregation with the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, led civil rights enforcement in schools and educational institutions at the US Department of Justice, and served as chair and commissioner of the US Commission on International Religious Freedom, which documents and makes recommendations on religious persecution and violence abroad. Anurimaa's incredible commitment to advancing human dignity through justice shines also as a seasoned storyteller as she's been a producer and adviser to numerous documentary films and projects. Along with being the founder and president of Anthem of Us, a strategic advisory and consulting firm for strengthening equity, belonging, and trust in workplaces, schools, and communities.

Anurima has long been active as an adviser and organizer for numerous political campaigns, marshaling resources and information for action, especially noteworthy these past few months in co organizing the impressive and ongoing South Asian Women for Harris movement. We chatted recently about all the compelling highlights that are drawing more and more voters to Kamala Harris, but I first wanted to know if similar to herself in her own work, whether it's safe to say that Kamala Harris is in fact a justice ninja. I I I'm so excited that you brought up the justice ninja part. I think I would describe her as less a justice ninja than, like, a she because she works a little bit more in the system. I try to figure out where there are problems to go fix and then show up there.

So Yeah. So that's where the ninja part comes in. But, certainly, we share, the commitment and the purpose of of justice in the world. Is she someone who because she has that spirit of going to look for places that need fixing and yet sort of has been so successful at really, really engaging with the justice system and making it whole, so to speak. Is that where her power lies because she's in the system?

I think anyone who's in the system, part of what your power your power is for particularly for women of color is that, we can bring into rooms that have not typically had our voices, our experience, our power, our lens, our brilliance, to to be able to bring those those energies into a room and and be able to serve in some ways as transformative insiders, which is which is something that I've always tried to do when I've been inside of of, you know, for example, the justice department or or elsewhere, but also as translators. Right? And part of what we need in America right now are people who can translate in many different ways and not only translate, but bridge. Those are the, in my mind, the most important skills that we need to bring to conversations to how we fix problems right now are, you know, how do we actually, have many, many different voices, in rooms. That's the way that we solve problems in a way that's gonna work for more than just the people who are just like us.

How how does Kamala Harris perhaps, you know, serve as a, or will serve as a translator in chief, especially given what you just mentioned. Right? I mean, in a way, translating policy, translating the justice system, translating so many different items of government and distilling it down at the kitchen table or for a blue collar worker or for someone who is marginalized. What's your take on how important of a translator in chief perhaps Kamala Harris will be? I think she has I mean, part of what informs my answer to that is that I've seen the way she's grown into that role over time.

Right? I think that she I in in the last few weeks, certainly the last since she's been in the space as a presidential candidate, we've seen her more comfortable in different ways of playing that role. We've seen her step into, into a space in which she's really trying to represent and and speak to and for different parts of America. And so I think part of what we're gonna see going forward is her continuing to do that. I mean, she she, the ways in which she's been able to communicate not only about herself, but the way that she's been able to communicate about, you know, what's going on in America, I think, is only gonna grow stronger.

And in and in some ways, I think the ways in which she has moved away from and not fall into the traps, that people are trying to set for her that that speak to divides. Right? So you don't see her speaking to her identity, which is which is for a lot of reasons, obviously, something that's very important to her in in so many ways, but also a trap in this moment to to silo someone, to to divide us. And so I think that's the other way, which is to understand the language. Part of being a translator is to understand the language of the times that we're in and to speak in that language, and I think that's something that she's got much more comfortable with.

I really love that because I I agree that I think that her greatest power right now, I think, as far as her identity and and all those amazing intersections that she lives in, is to only allow that identity to be additive and and really sort of serve the campaign and then serve the American people in that way. You did a lot of work this summer in, you know, yourself in mobilizing and tapping into organizing South Asian women, and I'm so curious in reflecting on that. It's been a few months now, but how did these efforts sort of feel empowering for you, especially at a typical crossroads of trying to magnify identity, but at the same time build power through coalition building? So I think there's a couple of ways in which I would talk about this moment for us. Right?

One of which is is it was so much an homage to the women that I know, South Asian women, black women, women of all different backgrounds, but really the women that I know who have been working for so long to to make sure that our political process are that organizing feels like it's a place for our communities feel like it's a place for everybody. Right? And there's such a strong foundation to build on. People ask the question of sort of how do we get a South Asian women for Harris call together in 2 days? It's because there were South Asian women for multiple candidates, many, many different people up and down ballot over the last multiple decades.

Right? So we're not we're not starting from scratch. Actually, we're starting from such a strong foundation, and it's and it's really the empowering part is to realize and what we want is to realize the ways in which that foundation has prepared us for this time. Mhmm. And that part of what we wanted to do with South Asian Women for Harris, it's not an organization.

It doesn't it doesn't exist in any kind of institutional way. The idea is that it's all of us. Right? That that the celebration is all of the ways in which women around the country have have been contributing in ways that may be seen, may not be seen, may be local, may be national, may may may run the gamut on the ways in which they're getting involved, and and it's an uplifting of all of that. And I think that's the other part, that has been, you know, sort of the energizing piece of this, which is this is not about you need to participate in some particular way.

This is about the ways in which we all participate, and I hope that this is a time seeing, you know, and having, Kamala Harris as as as the next president will will allow us to all feel like we can do that, that we belong in in the community of civic engagement, of of empowering each other and our neighbors, and and that we we are we are part of it, which, you know, in the most simple of ways. Yeah. You know, in in creating that sense of belonging and standing on the shoulders of of, you know, those who preceded you and really building community, in a pretty authentic and sort of organic way. With that effort, you know, now thinking about, you know, the remainder of the hard work that's still going on and definitely in contrast to the opposition, of course. You know, what are some of the highlights of Kamala Harris' record that particularly in reflecting on the efforts of the summer and the ongoing efforts now and especially as we celebrate this in our own communities, but then, you know, sort of build linkages and allyships with with so many others.

What are some of those elements of her record that are really compelling for you personally? I think there are many, and I think some of them are ones that even I'm discovering, right, in at this moment. So I'll speak to the ones that I think are more recent. I I think she has been such a powerful voice for women and women's rights, and not only in her person, but the ways in which she has been the person who within the administration who has built coalitions around how do we actually address, the attacks on on the autonomy and power, and very being of women. Right?

And so I think we've seen that over the last couple of years. We certainly seen that seen that since the supreme court's decision in DOD, and I think that has been a place where, she's really been able to to to to break out and shine as a as a vice president, which is often you know, it's it's a it's a difficult place to navigate. Right? Sure. I think the other place where we've seen her, really grow into her own, which I didn't, you know, I didn't have as much of a sense of, is on the world stage.

Right? And I think there there are many ways in which she has represented the United States, been part of, been part of of global conversations about the economy, about trade, about the ways in which, we we ensure that we are finding ways to not punish our workers, but actually engage in ways that are gonna actually support our workers and and and grow the economy, in in this moment. I think that's been another place that I've been learning more about the ways in which she's shown up. And at the end of the day, her story, right, but also the ways in which you think about the way that she was a senator, which is someone who at every term, right, try to speak, engage in a way that that that that center truth, that centered people's records over power. Right?

Over Yeah. Ways in which power was being corrupted. And right now, like, I I think that is in a time of of sort of extraordinary disinformation of or of a suggestion that violence violence is is the way to address divides and violence. Right? That that that that there's that that the way to do that isn't to actually hold power accountable, hold those who are who are engaging in ways that are breaking us accountable, which is what she has always done, is is the other place where I think it's really important to look at her record, which is, you know, she is as law law and order in many ways as we get.

Right? And Yeah. But does it in a way that does not suggest violence to me. Right? And, and I think this idea of aggressive violent tactics as opposed to what does it mean to set a different set of norms and standards?

What does it mean to hold people to those standards? That is the way in which I think she's shown up, and I think that's what's important in America right now is to remind the country that there are some values, there are some norms and standards that we all, must abide by. And, and and and I think that that's what she's based her career on, and I think what she'll do as president as well. Yeah. You mentioned her story and certainly the idea of having that law and order part of her story and yet also making sure that she's constantly I know the con at the convention, she was kept asking and reminding us that she's asking the question, are you okay?

I think that does speak a little bit, you know, particularly to not only her professional record, but her personal record, her personal value, and her and her compass, so to speak. As someone who's had a a front row seat at times to storytelling yourself, you know, especially when it comes to advancing justice and and and particularly making sure that those narratives are front and center for, you know, the public. And now at least thinking about the margins where voters are at, especially in those in those swing states, those who are still kind of just figuring this out, so to speak. Is there a particular narrative that we really should all be paying attention to, whether it's a specific issue or it's the in the general narrative of who Kamala Harris is and what she means to our future? I I think one of them there there are number of narratives that are missing, and there's also a number of communities that are not part of the narrative.

So I'll speak to both. Right? Which is I I think in terms of narratives that are missing, you always have to speak to feelings and not facts. Right? The feelings across the country right now is are that things are difficult.

They're hard. Right? It's hard it it is no joke that it is difficult for people to pay for groceries to do for basic needs. Right? And I think that there are really important steps that this administration has taken with Kamala Harris's vice president to address that.

The Inflation Reduction Act is one of the largest in, you know, infusions of investment into America in all of its different corners than we've seen in a very long time. But the story of that can't be that we will reduce the inflation when it doesn't feel like that. The story has to be that, like, it's coming. Right? And the ways in which we do this work is to continue to be smart about the ways in where investing, so that there can be long term space for and long term gains for workers.

The other thing I would say so I think that's a narrative that is missing right now. I think that the suggestion that in some way, shape, or form that one's economic tax cut, you know, like like, whatever you benefit from that, trumps every other way in which you might be actually assaulted is a real problem. Right? Yeah. Because we don't thrive just based on, you know, how much money you might get in a high end tech spec.

We thrive because we're part of communities that see us, that recognize us, that find us worthy, where we can feel safe. Right? And Yeah. And I can tell you that, you know, for my parents, for my uncles, for my aunts, like, around the country, like, we would never worry about in the last 20 or 25 years having to wander around America. And and the idea that, like, we have to worry about that in some ways, that that part of it, like, that's why I don't understand how, you know, that's not part of a a greater part of the narrative of of what does it mean to have someone who who is watch who's trying to actually build a space that includes us.

Right? But then also values the ways in which the idea of who represents merit and hard work has been completely contorted. Right? You know, the the the people who are in power, who who wanna be in power on the Republican side, the only conversation they're having is about how they are in power, how how and and how they and and frankly, we're seeing what we see from dictators and and and warmongers around the world, which is that I'll do anything to keep power, including the massacring of many, many people. Right?

And, you know, you know let's take a lesson from that, which is who's gonna get massacred here? This is a conversation about our survival. I sat with Amber Thurman's family, the woman from Georgia waited 20 hours for health care and ended up dying, in Georgia before the abortion ban in Georgia was struck down by a judge. Right? Yeah.

And sitting with her family a week ago, to me, it it just it's the fibers of my being understood in a different way that this is about survival. It's about literally being able to have our health care and our safety, taken care of. Now the other thing I wanna say, which I think is important, is that, you know, there are narratives that, you know, when we ask a question of, are you okay? Right? I shared something over the last 24 hours about the world is hurting everywhere, and it is incredibly important that the question of are you okay is one that is asked without regard to border, without regard to religion, without regard to narratives and power dynamics and money.

Right? That question has to be asked probably, and it requires us to recognize that the people who are on the other side of the world are also our family. Right? And Yeah. I think that is a place that we need to do a lot of work as America, as a Democratic party, and certainly in this administration too.

And and I hope I hope, and that is where I'm putting my my, you know, putting some of the hurt that we feel right now is in the hope that that the RU Okay is expanded and not and not limited. Yeah. You know, it resonates very powerfully for me as a physician because at the end of the day, the connection of humanity is what matters. And that idea of being agnostic to my patients and who they are matters a lot when it comes to asking that question because it's irrespective of of their backgrounds. It's irrespective of their political, leanings.

And when you think about that question of are you okay and how it actually resonates even for you personally and and your own given background, At the end of the day, voting is our ultimate demonstration of trust in a democracy. And I think about it for you and your background. How do you connect the dots maybe of being a South Asian American from the South Side of Chicago to Kamala Harris and what that candidacy means to you, particularly given what you just mentioned, which is, you know, how will someone be asking that question of, you know, are you okay? So I I grew up on the black South side of Chicago, and I was one of the few, South Asians, who grew up in those communities. And in many ways, I think maybe I had a, I I don't know this.

Right? But maybe I had an experience similar to Kamala's, which is people didn't know quite what to do with me or my brother. Right? And so you were able to wander through worlds in a different kind of way. Right?

And what that allows you to do is to feel and to to be part of multiple different communities and not not be stuck in 1, you know, in one, in one narrative, in one understanding of who you are. And I think that's, that's what I think I brought and what she certainly brought to being a lawyer, in my case to being a civil rights lawyer, particularly a civil rights lawyer for kids. Right? Which is to understand that there are ways in which the experience, what I'm what I'm, what I'm advocating for is something that is near to unfamiliar, to me too. Even if it wasn't something I directly encountered, I recognize it's something that was probably just sitting right next to me.

Right? And so I think I think that's the way in which but this but this moment of, of feeling a sense of of solidarity, certainly between black and South Asian communities in certain ways is is something that is deeply, deeply familiar to me, not only in terms of how I grew up, but also in terms of my work with the NAACP Legal Defense Fund and and in the justice department in the civil rights division, which is that, you know, there there are there's so many ways in which our fights have been intertwined from the start. Our stories have been intertwined from the start. And we are in an unprecedented era right now of trying to erase race, trying to to divide and conquer us. We see it from everything, from our conversations around higher education admissions to the ways in which histories are literally being erased from kindergarten classrooms.

And, and in that moment, the ways in which we're certainly not, you know, we we we are seeped in it. It is part of how we walk in the world. It is, you know, we're not having this is not about, like, a recognizing of a racial moment. This is about the ways in which our communities are mapped by, shaped by, and infused by who we are and, and being able to raise that up. As that story plays out, and it's a genuinely American story that's messy and complicated and layered, especially when it comes to identity and race and gender that's, you know, continuing to allow American culture and history to evolve, but particularly anchored with those three things.

In living at those intersections and and giving what you just said, does Kamala Harris actually give us all license to explore this better and actually have those conversations that are that are required as an imperative, particularly in in thinking about not only just a a this election, but kind of finding peace and power in those conversations as as best as we can. I think she just gives us the space to center our stories. Mhmm. Yeah. I think there's a way in which, you know, most people don't know the story of Bhagavat Singh Thind.

Right? They don't know the story of the ways in which there are people over over, you know, even the early part of the last century. Right. Were trying to find a way to be American. Right?

They don't they don't know the stories of what it means, right, to come to the this country after the 1965 Immigration and Naturalization Act and to be valued, right, for the what you the way that people my parents were valued was for what they were contributing to the economy as a professional, as a skilled worker. Yeah. But there's so much more that they're bringing to America. Right? And I think this allows us to recognize there's so much more that we're bringing to America, that isn't a narrow story about the work, and the and the economic benefit of immigrants, but the but the American benefit of having a country that is that is all of these people all of us, you know, evolving in the in the strange and weird and ninja like ways that we might evolve.

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I'll get you out of here on this. For those people who are thinking about all these important questions and and for that matter, those people who aren't, what's your message now to to voters and to those Americans who've been veering more towards staying on the sidelines or apathy or still, in fact, getting to know Kamala Harris because they have been staying on the sidelines or apathetic, and they're just sort of jumping in now out of interest and because of the timing of things.

What's your message to them, and and how as this election gets closer, you know, how to get more involved, how to get more engaged, and and how to maybe combat that that apathy or or staying on the sidelines. I would say to them that this is your time. This is your time to celebrate the ways in which you have shown up in America, to celebrate your story, to celebrate the ways in which you've contributed, to to your family, to your neighbors, to the ways in which America has evolved. And, it's not the time to cut that story short. It's the time to actually for all of us to show up and make sure that our story continues and it continues in a way that involves all of us and, and there are many ways in which we can take that story but let's make sure that in this moment, right, that that that that your stories are part of this this this larger narrative, this larger moment, this larger empower larger empowerment and this larger reckoning of of who we are and our humanity and the the kind of suffering that we're seeing, you know, down the street and across the world, that we we have we all have a hand in in how we address that.

The how might be something that we all figure out along the way, but the but the the ways in which this is, you know, part of our collective purpose and our collective existence and our collective humanity, you know, those are those are things that, it's important that we show up for right now. Well, you know, in your capacity, shining so many lights on this and bringing people to the table and especially those who've never been to the table and and on top of that, advocating for so many and and really advocating for what's just and right, right now at this moment. Hernanima, thank you so much for for joining us. This was really a special conversation, and I hope we can visit with you again down the road.
Yes. Thank you again so much for having me.

Remember, conversation is the antidote to apathy. Now this all is in the show notes, but I'll share it here too. Go to I will vote dot com for information about resources, to south asians for harris2024.org, and to kamalaharris.com to learn about the Harris waltz campaign. Please get involved, get engaged, and get informed about all your local issues and candidates up and down the ballot.

Till next time. I'm Abhay Dandekar