TRUST ME I KNOW WHAT I'm DOING

Abhay (00:00.098)
Hey friends, this is Abhay Dandekar. Before we get started, don't forget to subscribe to Trust Me I Know What I'm Doing on YouTube, Amazon, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen or watch. That way you never miss our show celebrating the vibrant Indian and South Asian global experience. Thanks.

Hi, I'm Rich Verrma, current Chief Administrative Officer at MasterCard, former US Ambassador to India, former Deputy Secretary of State. And this is, trust me, I know what I'm doing.

My name is Abhay Dandekar and I share conversations with talented and interesting individuals linked to the global Indian and South Asian community. It's informal and informative, adding insights to our evolving cultural expressions, where each person can proudly say, trust me, I know what I'm doing.

Hi everybody on this episode of Trust Me I Know What I'm Doing we chat with the former US Ambassador to India, the former Deputy Secretary of State and now Chief Administrative Officer at MasterCard Rich Verma. Stay tuned.

you

Abhay (01:07.182)
Okay, let me let you in on a not so well kept secret. I'm deeply honored that you're actively listening and so grateful for you right now. You made a choice and an effort to engage here with Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing and make it part of your day and even a small part of your life. And guess what? Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing has no tariffs, no $100,000 fees, and is full of 100 % organic human goodness. I appreciate everyone listening on all the podcast platforms, rating and writing reviews, following on those good old social media places.

and sharing this with all your friends and family. This episode as always is also available on YouTube so please check out the full video episode there too. Now if you've really got something to get off your chest to celebrate or just feeling friendly, send a message over to info at abhidharnadakar.com as I'd love to hear from you. I've always thought for a long time there is such a science and an art to being versatile in your curiosities and then subsequently finding a way to translate this to great execution and leadership.

And there's likely few who embody this as well as Rich Farma. Rich is the former U.S. Ambassador to India. And most recently, he was the Deputy Secretary of State for Management Resources from 2023 to 2025. He's an Air Force veteran and he currently serves as the Chief Administrative Officer for MasterCard. I'm so pleased to be joined by truly a giant in public service and private sector leadership who may actually be our first proud Lehigh grad.

Rich Verma, welcome to Trust Me. I know what I'm doing and thanks so much for being here.

Thank you. Thanks so much. It's great to be with you and thanks for the Lehigh shout out. I was on the Lehigh campus yesterday because I am still connected to the school and very excited about that. And it's great to be with the students and faculty there.

Abhay (02:56.194)
Yeah, it is really something that keeps us all young. And on top of that, I have to say, if I have this correct, you're a true rock and roll aficionado as well. think you've met Bono and Jimmy Page and maybe Springsteen as well.

I haven't met Springsteen, but no, it's true. Music is a big part of my life. I was the youngest of five kids growing up and my older siblings kind of introduced me to 70s rock on vinyl and then eight track and then cassette and CD. And then of course, as a child of the 80s, yes, had the chance to meet some of those folks. But I love music. And in fact, in some of my recent speeches, including

to the South Asian Bar Association Gala of New York. A weeks ago, I closed my remarks with a Taylor Swift lyrics from Long Live. And I'll have to share that with you at some point.

And now, you know, as someone who's blending in, I guess, 2020s and 80s stuff, is there, is your playlist quite active with kind of a blend of old and new right now?

It is, it is. the new stuff is really due to my three teenagers at home that have introduced me to a lot of the newer stuff. But it's interesting, the reason I quoted Taylor, it was about, I was talking about my parents and I was talking about, if you know the, one of the last verses of Long Live, it talks about breaking through walls. And if they see my picture, tell them who I am.

Abhay (04:10.871)
Yeah.

Rich (04:33.078)
and what we did. And I was telling the crowd, like, I want to tell you about my mom and my dad and what she did and why they should be remembered and all the walls that they broke through. And so it was a great, that's how I use those lyrics. But I love song lyrics for me are like poetry.

Yeah, yeah, no, it's a great way, first off, to stay relevant and a great way to connect with just about every generation and really get those very poetic messages out there. You're someone who's been able to navigate so successfully in so many different arena, but particularly between that sort of private and public sector space and seemingly affect so much positive change around you wherever you go. feel like as...

For me, as I age, get that much more set in my ways and with a whole lot of rigid preferences. And I probably am not the person who's quoting Taylor Swift every other day. But the idea of that kind of inflexibility setting in as we age, and yet, you know, the secret I'm imagining to navigating so successfully between the private and public sectors is to be flexible and to have a growth mindset. I'm wondering, have these transitions for you...

you know, in some ways gotten harder or easier for you with time and experience. And maybe what's the secret to that?

Yeah, it's a, it's a great question. You know, looking back over 30 to 35 years now, sure. It tends to make sense and you can tell a story. Like I had it all planned and mapped out, but of course that wasn't the case at all. You know, I grew up like probably a lot of your listeners, first generation family. You know, my parents came over in the early sixties. Actually, my dad tells a great story about.

Rich (06:21.262)
landing in New York city with $14 and a bus ticket. And I, we've heard that story so many times growing up. Um, sometimes he had $22. Sometimes he had $14. When I go around the country and tell this story, people just come up to me afterwards and they're like, my dad or my mom, the exact same story. had $12 and it's always in their pocket. Like that part of it was a big, big part of it. uh,

started over and then kind of grew up in Western Pennsylvania outside Pittsburgh. You know, I think, you know, being the first Indian American family in Johnstown, Pennsylvania was both exciting and really challenging at the same time. And so you spend a lot of that upbringing. For me, at least it was about assimilating. was.

didn't want to be different. didn't want my mom to pack Indian food in my lunch, right? I didn't want her to show up at the school events in her sorry, right? I was just like, my gosh, you know, can't we not be different? But

Did you go by Rahul growing up?

No, it's interesting. People think that somehow, you know, like I was trying to Americanize myself and go by Rich, but I was actually born in Canada. We moved to Pennsylvania when I was two. Yeah. But it was my dad and my dad's friends who said he really needs a quote unquote Canadian name. Right. he should be Richie and Richard Rahul Verma. And so like that, that was the name and that was.

Rich (08:09.538)
That was the name he gave me. So it was, it was cool. was glad he thought like that. Anyway, this is a long, long answer to your question, but it was, it was only later, probably law school that into the military where I was like, you know what? Being Indian American, being South Asian is a cool thing. It's a great thing. Yeah. We ought to be proud of it. And, and so your question about

public versus private sector, you know, I pushed the envelope a little bit with my parents, you know, this whole notion of keep your head down and just, you know, become a doctor or an engineer. remember saying to my dad in high school, I like, I want to be in the military. And he just looked at me like, that was not part of the plan. You know, that's part of the assimilation plan. So.

That's not the rich Rahul Verma that I know.

Right. I was always interested in public service, national security, international affairs, had a curiosity about the world, largely because of, you know, where we came from in this immigrant story. And, you know, it was law that was the glue that held it all together. And as I look back on it now, I've been out of law school for 32 years. I have spent 16...

years in the six, almost 17 years in the public sector, 16 and a half years in the private sector. I didn't design it that way, but I've tried to stay within this kind of cone of international affairs, national security, foreign policy, public service, where I can. And now, I guess it makes sense. At the time, was kind of one...

Rich (10:03.998)
one move at a time, one step at a time. So that's, as I said, this is a long setup to answer your question.

I get it though, because like, I like how you put it. There's a sort of a cone of different, you know, themes here. And because those cones do intersect and overlap and it's been sort of this, you know, area that you've been facile with for so long, I'm imagining that, you know, as you keep going back and forth from some of these sectors that, that becomes a little bit easier. You with MasterCard now being a CAO and of course a former deputy secretary of state.

You had operate with lots of different guard rails and regulations, but also find great pathways for opportunity and progress. And how have you, you know, especially in a day and age where trying to balance both of those, you know, really well is a fine needle to thread. What's the formula that you've had to kind of lead in this regard and in keeping the teams that you are working with kind of cognizant of the boundaries, but also.

what are the being motivated by the opportunities that are out

Yeah. So when you think about leadership, you you really are a product of your environment and your upbringing and who you've been around for these three or four decades. And so when I, and this gets back to mentors and training, and I, have been so lucky to have the best people to learn from, again, my mom and dad.

Rich (11:39.328)
Obviously, you know, incredibly hardworking, incredibly decent people took people in all the time. didn't matter where they were from. like our house was like this, literally this melting pot in Western Pennsylvania, which was great. And, and then someone like Senator Reed, like Harry Reed, he that, you know, if I look back on the jobs that I've had over, 30, again, 35 years, here's someone who took a chance on me.

made me the chief counsel, maybe the national security advisor to the Senate majority leader and minority leader, post 9 11 and environment. My desk was 50 feet from the Senate floor for six years and he stuck with me at every turn and really helped me. And that's where you meet people like Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and all sorts of incredible people, tough issues.

Fast forward to today, we're now, okay, I have to be in that leadership role. I am supposed to guide folks. I, you know, I think about what it means now in a really complicated environment, complicated geopolitical environment, complicated politics here at home. Yeah. People under a lot of stress. Technology is moving really, really fast. And so I think, you know, people want

They want a vision from leaders. want leaders to be compassionate. They want leaders to be understanding. They want leaders to engage with the workforce and meet them where they are. So my state department, deputy secretary role, there was a reason why I went to 77 embassies and consulates in two years, went to places that a lot of folks were not making it to. fact, secretary Blinken asked me to go to places that he couldn't get to.

which is exactly how I ended up going places. you don't, know, showing up makes a big difference and just listening to people. And then that informed what we were going to do back in Washington. And I learned that from being, you know, when I was ambassador in India, sometimes not surprisingly, Washington was out of step with what we needed, what we were facing, what we were feeling. And I didn't want that to happen. Same thing at MasterCard. I am trying to get out.

Rich (14:03.134)
We've got offices all over the world, very global company, which is great. But I'm trying to get out and meet with them, meet with foreign governments, really understand what they're facing and what they're confronting. How do we bring more people into the kind of modern digital economy, this financial inclusion goal that we have, and engaging with that workforce really helps me understand what's on their mind. So I think being present, listening,

And then acting, you know, like you hear things that people are, they need, then trying to do something about it also matters.

Yeah, no, mean that great reminder about listening and empathy and then sort of executing on the material that you're soaking in. You're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. After a quick break, we'll come back to our conversation with Rich Verma. Stay tuned.

Abhay (15:01.816)
Conversation. It's the antidote to apathy and the catalyst for relationships. I'm Abhay Dandekar and I share conversations with global Indians and South Asians so everyone can say, me, I know what I'm doing. New episodes weekly wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Rich (15:24.238)
Hi, I'm Vivek Murthy. I'm the 21st Surgeon General of the United States, and you're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing.

Abhay (15:40.278)
I'm Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi

Hi, I'm Congressman Ro Khanna.

I am Congressman Sri Thanedar. Hi, I'm Congressman Ami Bera. Hi I'm Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal. Hi I'm Suhas Subramanyam and you're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing.

Abhay (16:00.866)
Welcome back to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. Let's rejoin our conversation now with Rich Verma. I've asked this very rarely to others, but I'm just thinking about this right now where you have this kind of style of leadership where, like you said, sort of showing up is a big, big deal. And then at the same time, sort of listening and then executing on those things. But as a skilled diplomat, as a skilled leader and-

in an age where technology moves so fast and relationship building is so important, how have you also been able to lead upwards to the leaders who are above you as well? Whether they be secretaries of states or presidents or CEOs, mean, that leading upwards is such a challenge too.

Yeah. Well, again, super fortunate to have bosses that give you the space to frankly trip, fall and get back up. Yeah. were numerous days I had to walk into secretary Clinton's office or secretary Blinken's office and say, you know, I think I got this one wrong or we didn't do this one exactly right. And again, I remember secretary Clinton would say, it's okay, let's pick up, let's move on. Let's

figure it out, let's get it done right. As long as you're kind of upward leadership, you're board of directors, whoever you are reporting to, your constituents, if you're in elected office, as long as they know you are really, if you're working hard, putting your heart into it, you have a good plan and you're trying and you're trying to produce a very high quality product. And I think that's the thing I say to my team all the time. Look, as long as we are really trying to execute,

with high quality deliverables that could be in the government, that could be in the private sector. We're going to stumble periodically and that's okay. But we're going to get also give you a ton of freedom to try to figure out how to do this in a really smart, hopefully fun, hopefully enjoyable way. That's the other thing I would say. I, people I work with, I want them to like coming to work. doesn't mean work is going to be easy every day. doesn't mean

Rich (18:14.638)
I won't have to call them on a Sunday. I apologize in advance to them because that's the nature of work today. But we want people to thrive and enjoy what they're doing and excel at what they're doing. And sometimes people get stuck in work environments where that is not possible. I've been in work environments like that, and that can be really challenging. So leading up means you deliver on what you said you were going to do. You kind of regularly report in. You try to meet.

have clear goals and benchmarks that are really measurable so that ultimately your boss doesn't have to worry about you each day. Like what is he doing? What is the team doing? Yeah, exactly. So you want to have that clear open line of communication that they know you're getting the job done and trying some things differently and being innovative.

Alright, what's going on?

Abhay (19:09.582)
love that idea of just kind of clear lines of sight and transparency. that's probably something that hopefully a lot of that is with that genuine honesty that you have with the people around you and the people who are working above you as well. I imagine that that's probably something that you learn pretty often, perhaps from your parents, this idea of like, hey, listen, I can be my best honest self and there's a balance of fun and accountability there too.

Yeah, totally. They, I think that's exactly right. You know, the first generation, everyone knows this, everyone who's listening to you knows the first generation arrivals in this country. You got to work really hard in my parent. just watched them work really hard and what, who were they working for? You know, not for themselves. They weren't looking, they were trying to do everything for their kids. It was all about better future, better life, better.

You know, opportunities, you know, they came from challenging backgrounds. know, my mother and grandmother products of partition ended up, you know, it's like so many others moving. Whether you were moving east or west, it was a challenging situation and they traveled about 500 miles ended up in, in Jalunda and Punjab. But remarkably, my grandmother was educated school teacher. She made sure my mother was educated school teacher.

Yeah. And think about it in that era, very hard to imagine. Sure. As ambassador, I got to go back to the school where they both taught, which is still there in an impoverished area. It's a girls school in Jalundher. And these women now in their eighties came out to greet me. They squeezed my cheeks like this. they said, you know, without your mother and grandmother, we would not be here today.

They were the ones who told us we had to stay in school. We had to find a job. We had to get educated. And that was an incredible honor and incredible opportunity to hear from them. It was also a reminder about what it means to have an impact in the world. I get, yeah, as deputy secretary of state, as ambassador, you get to go to all these summits. You get to go sit down with world leaders. Then you realize the school teacher in Jolanda or the school teacher here in

Rich (21:32.972)
Maryland can have perhaps a bigger impact on the trajectory of people's lives, on families in a way. it was a great reminder about what it means to have a impact. And then my dad, similarly, oldest of 10 kids, first one ever to go to college, first one to be formally educated. He tells a great story, not only the immigrant story, but a great story about showing up at the U.S. embassy.

in 1963, they drove, you know, two or 300 miles, got a suit, practiced his visa interview. And he was, he had two, he had two letters with him. He had a letter from the Ford foundation awarding him a fellowship. And he had a letter from the university of Northern Iowa admitting him. And he said he was so nervous. His parents were so nervous, but you know, God bless the U S consular officer that day. Yeah.

granted him his visa. And it is also a reason why as ambassador, I would go out to that consular line on a pretty regular basis, see people in their suits, see people who had driven hundreds of miles, who were super nervous, but knew there was this incredible opportunity awaiting them in the United States. And that is a promise of America that we can't

We can't forget that we, we attract these incredible people from all over the world. who do not have a hundred thousand dollars and who don't have a million dollars, right? They are working. They're at the beginning of their lives, of their careers, and they are looking to contribute to the future of the United States. And that is something I hope we don't lose. And you can see that whether you go.

to the museum at Ellis Island, or you go to any of our Smithsonian museums that teach about the history of what makes this country so strong.

Abhay (23:38.798)
You mentioned a couple of words there that kind of are resonating today that still have anchors to those first generation stories that we all have for sure, but $100,000 and major contributions to the American experience speak to the new plight of H1B visa applicants and companies that are using that system right now. The challenges of that right now?

I'm just curious about your thoughts about that, given the backdrop that you just mentioned where these are powerful stories that we know from the past, but is the future of this story going to change? Because I'm just curious what your thoughts are about this H1B sort of swirl that we've

Yeah. You know, I think the H1B swirl is part of a larger discussion about globalization, about migration. First, know, was President Reagan who talked about the diversity of the United States being our strength, talked about America being, you know, that shining city on a hill. Again, attracting talent from across the world and coming here.

based on a set of ideas and ideals. think about, there's two stories in particular. I think about the Marine security guards that guarded the US embassy in New Delhi and frankly guard around the world. You know, at least in our case of the 15 or 16 that were there, I'd say half of them were refugees to the United States or first generation or came here with very difficult stories. And only 10 or 15 years later, they were

putting the uniform on and pledging to defend the United States. Great Americans, right? No one would ever question them. I remember when my mother decided to become a U S citizen in high school, she, when I was in high school and she studied for that test, came home with her, you know, small American flag, put it right next to her Indian spices in the kitchen. She was so proud of that. And my mother was emblematic again, of someone who was a great American. She wore a sari.

Rich (25:46.858)
spoke with an accent, cooked Indian food, was not of the same religious background of her neighbors, but she was a special needs teacher. She gave back to the community. She took people in, she paid her taxes. She worked really hard, loved the United States. We can't let people tell us what it means to look or sound or American. If you have an accent or if you are from a certain country and that's

What worries me about where this debate is headed, people telling us what it means to be American. I think we know from this immigrant experience what it means. You sign onto a set of ideals, you sign onto this compact, you sign onto something much larger than yourself, which is again, why we attract so many people and the greatness of the country. And so as we go through all of these difficult political challenges, we have to remember why we are so strong.

And we have to be remembering these stories and telling these stories back to our, you know, Taylor Swift. Like, tell them who I am.

You're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. After a quick break, we'll come back to our conversation with the former US ambassador to India, Rich Verma.

Abhay (27:09.824)
Every story told is a lesson learned and every lesson learned is a story waiting to be told. I'm Abhay Dandekar and I share conversations with global Indians and South Asians so everyone can say, trust me, I know what I'm doing. New episodes weekly wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Rich (27:32.91)
This is Madhuri.

And you are listening to Trust Me I Know What I'm Doing with Abhay Dandekar.

Abhay (27:46.712)
Hi, this is Farhan Akhtar. Hi, guys.

Hi, I'm Ananya Panday. Hi guys, I'm Indra Nooyi. Hi everyone, this is Chef Vikas Khanna. Hi, I'm Lily Singh and you're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing.

singing.

Abhay (28:01.868)
Hi there. I'm Abhay Dandekar and you're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. Let's rejoin our conversation now with the former US Ambassador to India, the former Deputy Secretary of State and now Chief Administrative Officer at MasterCard, Rich Verma. Does the undertone of this and that definition of, you know, what is American-ness and who is the American worker and what does that American worker actually look like? I mean, that's what's at stake here, right? I mean, just...

Who is defining that and how are they defining it? And I can hear the sort of passion in your voice when it comes to both the personal aspect of this and the professional aspect of this, of those experiences that you had. I mean, in that context of redefining who actually is going to be an American worker in the future, why does your, and why does anyone's Indian-American-ness matter now? Why should it matter? And perhaps,

how do we better declare that in an era where the definitions of this are being re-navigated perhaps at the policy level? Much like what we're kind of, mean, in a soft way seeing with this H1B conversation.

Yeah. Look, I think we're just a stronger country when you have people from all over with different views and different ideas and different experiences. It's why, you know, at the State Department, we wanted to recruit from all 50 States. We wanted people who had gone to community college. We wanted people who had gone to Ivy League schools. We wanted everything in between. We wanted people who were technologists who had 10 or 15 years experience. We wanted people who were, who had

you know, backgrounds in all different professions from all over the world. That makes you a stronger organization. It also makes you a stronger country. There's no, there's just no question about that. Should immigration be lawful? Of course. Should people have to wait their turn? Of course. But this notion that somehow the current problems of today are, are because people have come from other places.

Rich (30:15.95)
It's an easy way out. It is an easy way out. And again, back to my own kind of high school and college and law school experience, you know, that pride of, of being Indian American or South Asian, think is so uniquely American, right? It's like, you can show up and talk about your background. You can show up and talk about your culture and you can show up and love the American flag and you can serve in the U S military.

as I did, and you can serve in three Senate confirmed jobs as I did and still be really proud of your ethnic roots. Let's fight for that vision of America.

Yeah, I mean, it's such an important reminder that our backgrounds and our backstories and who we are, both outside and inside, actually accelerates our patriotism and is a great, great marker for that. Thinking a little bit about how that works in the kind of current geopolitics of the world, I would say the last few months of U.S.-India relations have been interesting, to say the least.

And through all of the posturing and the tariffs and the backstories of the H1B conversation, it's a new geopolitical era. And yet it's not. mean, I know that stories are always recycled and there are always challenges and opportunities everywhere. Is right now patience, which isn't always in high demand, especially at the kitchen table and lots of conversations that happen across the world, both here and in India and South Asia, but

How do you, as someone who's had a very, very close front row seat in US-India relations and the geopolitics around that, how do you propose patients as a key here in what seems to be very challenging times?

Rich (32:09.772)
Yeah. It's interesting. don't, I don't know that patience is what I would argue for. I think we, I think we need to not be patient or complacent. I think we have to fight for what we think is right. And what I believe, and I think presidents of all parties have believed that this is the most important relationship for the United States in the, in the 20s. So again, just a quick history reminder for your listeners, and they know this better than I do, but

You know, 77 year relationship between the U S and India, at least modern India. First 20 were good, actually with Eisenhower and Kennedy and Truman. The next 30 were pretty bad and we hit rock bottom, you know, in the early seventies. And it wasn't until president Clinton, India in the year 2000. And he told his national security council team, said, I want a prosperous, separate relationship from India. I don't want.

Indo-Pak, I don't want the hyphen. I want, this is a relationship that is too important. Frankly, it reminds me of something President Kennedy said in the early sixties. He said, the hinge of fate in Asia rests with India. Yeah, he was right. And Clinton viewed the same thing. So Clinton goes in spring of 2000 and lays out four pathways of cooperation, trade and economics, clean energy, believe it or not, people to people.

ties and defense and security. And those have been the four pathways of cooperation over 25 years. Sure. Based on shared values, based on people to people ties, and it's done exceedingly well. And so I hope this 25 year chapter has not come to a close. We have to remember to treat each other with respect. We have to remember

We each come to the table with slightly different backgrounds, but I think we ought to redouble our efforts to make sure we've got another 25 years of growth in all kinds of new and exciting areas now in health cooperation and in space cooperation and in maritime areas. There's so many things.

Rich (34:25.654)
And frankly, I would say the companies and the people are not waiting for the governments. are continuing to deepen their, their relationships are continuing to move ahead. So I really want, I really want things to get back on track. So I'm not one who would argue to kind of watch, watch from the sidelines and be patient. think we, we really have to get things going.

So watch from the sidelines.

Abhay (34:49.217)
Yeah. I, I, and I appreciate that because sometimes, especially for those who are not necessarily in the vortex of those or have great deep experiences like you do, we're sort of watching and waiting. yet it speaks yet to the importance of staying vigilant and being active in this conversation, especially, you know, when we just don't have time to perhaps wait.

Yeah, I think it's too consequential. I think for both sides, I think this relationship just means too much. again, it starts with those shared values. There's a reason that our two constitutions start with the same three words, we the people. two largest democracies in the world ought to be the closest friends and partners. And that's the trajectory we have to be on.

Let ask you a quick one here. mean, all these experiences speak to so much growth and so much vision and so much experience that you've built up, but I'm curious, you know, in a nutshell, are there things that you've also had to particularly unlearn about yourself or let go of in order to find great success?

Well, that's interesting. mean, I think this is like, you never give up learning about how to do things better. And you realize how much you don't know about certain areas. So it also requires kind of a constant learning. There's a reason why, you know, I didn't, I got my PhD. I argued my dissertation five years ago, so I was awarded my PhD in 2020. Wow. Talk about keep learning.

Thanks to the folks at Georgetown for making that possible. But the same thing here at MasterCard, know, continuing to learn is really, really great. Fine people, a lot of people much younger than me who are teaching me every day. I love this idea of reverse mentoring where, you know, it's not me mentoring others. It's folks, frankly, in a generation or two below me or younger than me who are teaching me. And I learned that from

Rich (36:57.804)
my kids as well and my spouse and every day I'm picking up something. So I'm pretty, we'll say I'm pretty aware of what I don't know and where I still need to do better. And that is a, let's say lifelong journey that I think we're all on.

Yeah, no, think there's a lot of letting go of ego and particularly, and the way you put that there, I think that is perhaps the easiest way to describe your MasterCard priceless moment there. So hopefully a lot of that reverse mentorship continues. Let me get you out of here on this one. And I've seen some terrific LinkedIn posts recently from you about those great opportunities and in global connectivity and you know, the spaces that we are trying to occupy with tech and policy work and all the intersections to that.

just speaks to so much opportunity out there to just continue to build relationships. So in a very skeptical world that's out there these days, where this is becoming increasingly difficult, how do you continue to cultivate trust?

Well, I think it goes back to showing up, right? Talking to people, building relationships, making sure they know that you're going to be there for them when things are difficult. That could be you as an individual, that could be the technology or products that you're offering, that you're going to be there again, when it's not when everything is going well, but also when, things are a bit challenging. And I think that's again, that's what I've tried to do. know that's

Our team at MasterCard is doing that every day. But I think building trust is something that is key to whether you're in the public or private sector. It just goes back to sitting across the table, treating people as equals, listening really carefully, putting yourself in their shoes, understanding the world from their eyes and their perspective, and then trying to partner together and solve the problems. That's all you can do.

Abhay (38:58.414)
Well, listening and demonstrating such great empathy and trying to solve problems. I think they are three great descriptors for your work over many, many years now. And of course, continue to go forward. Rich, thank you so much for joining us on Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. Really a lovely conversation and I hope we can visit with you again down the road.

That'd be great. Thank you. And let me thank you for doing this and for highlighting all these stories. You know, I get to sit here and talk to you, but really I am able to do this because of all the chances and opportunities I've been given by others over the years. you know, sometimes when I have the podium or have the mic, I am reminded of how important it is to thank all those who have worked so hard who before me and who are working so hard today. And I remind people,

You know that story about my dad showing up with $14 and a bus ticket. There was someone showing up today with $14 and a bus ticket.

That bus ticket. There you go. Thanks so much again, Rich. Big shout out to everyone going for Ras Garba and celebrating Navratri and Dassera. And also to my new friends, Suman and Preethi from the Indo American Arts Council in New York City. Check out their work at IAAC.US. Now, if you enjoy this episode of Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing, make sure to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, Apple podcasts, so you never miss a conversation celebrating the rich and diverse Indian and South Asian experience.

Love the conversation? Please leave us a review and definitely share with your friends and family. Till next time, I'm Abhay Dandekar