TRUST ME I KNOW WHAT I'm DOING

Speaker 1 (00:00.204)
My name is Shefali Razdan Dugal, the recently retired United States Ambassador to the Kingdom of the Netherlands. And this is, trust me, I know what I'm doing.

My name is Abhay Dandekar and I share conversations with talented and interesting individuals linked to the global Indian and South Asian community. It's informal and informative, adding insights to our evolving cultural expressions, where each person can proudly say, trust me, I know what I'm doing.

interesting.

Speaker 2 (00:35.394)
Hi everyone, on this episode of Trust Me I Know What I'm Doing, we share a conversation with the recently retired United States Ambassador to the Netherlands, Shefali Razdan Duggal. Stay tuned.

Speaker 2 (00:51.042)
you

So I'll just keep stating it over and over again that I'm deeply honored that you're listening and so grateful for you right now. You made a choice and an effort to engage here with Trust Me I Know What I'm Doing and make it part of your day and even a small part of your life. And guess what? Trust Me I Know What I'm Doing is not only free of any tariffs, but it's also free of dyes and chemical additives. I appreciate everyone listening on all the podcast platforms, rating and writing reviews, following on Instagram or LinkedIn.

and sharing this with all your friends and family. This is also available on YouTube, so please check out the full video episode there too. If you've really got something to share, celebrate, or are just feeling friendly, send a message over to info at abhaydandekar.com as I'd love to hear from you. So as we've seen so often, while the journey of many Indian American leaders can be quite non-linear, a common thread can be the commitment to authenticity, purpose, and kindness.

And especially for this episode, it was really nice to catch up with my friend and someone who personifies this, Shefali Razdan Duggal. Now it's not easy to connect the dots from India to Ohio to the National Finance Committee of a presidential campaign and then to being a US ambassador, but that's exactly where Shefali's journey has taken her. She's a Kashmiri pandit born in Haridwar, Uttar Pradesh, who moved to Cincinnati when she was two and raised by an incredibly strong single mother.

Shefali has had a front row seat her entire professional life in numerous national political campaigns. Most recently, she served on the National Finance Committee for Joe Biden's 2020 presidential campaign and as a national co-chair of Women for Biden. In September of 2022, Shefali was chosen and confirmed for a diplomatic mission when she was sworn in as the US ambassador to the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Not only was she the first person of color to serve in this specific role,

Speaker 2 (02:41.506)
but her experience and leadership as a long-time political advocate for gender equity and as an astute and proud steward of her nation's values left deep impressions on people, countries, and institutions right up to the end of her service this past January. Now I can tell you that most importantly, at the forefront of her contributions was her signature commitment to authenticity, purpose, and kindness. So as we caught up to chat about her experiences,

Knowing that Shefali is now a member of the Council of American Ambassadors, I wanted to first learn more about that rare air of camaraderie, connection, and peer kinship among these superb leaders.

Sure, that's a great question. So I'll answer the one that's probably top line, which is yes, all of the ambassadors, political and career, there is a connectivity between us. So as an example, when I was going through my process to become an ambassador, you go through something in Washington, DC, FSI, the Foreign Service Institute.

In my class, it's a three week instruction. There were 23 career ambassador nominees and five politicals. And we all became extremely close. We're still on a WhatsApp group together and we're loving on each other, supporting each other. But beyond that, yes, when you're serving also, it is very easy to...

dial up any ambassador, US ambassador around the world to get guidance and opinions and talk with them about policy matters. I also had several ambassadors that I tapped as I would say mentors who had done this before, who really cared about me doing well because we care about the United States doing well. So yes, that camaraderie absolutely exists before, during, and frankly after.

Speaker 1 (04:42.72)
as well. Like we're all very close. I would also say that the way that I approached public service, whether it was in the space of politics or whether it was in the space of policy, the camaraderie isn't just necessarily on the same level that you're serving. when I came to the embassy, that was something I made very, very clear. I was serving in the Netherlands as U.S. ambassador.

It's called a mission, which is not meant as a verb. It's meant as a subject. A mission means the U S embassy and all the consulates in that, in that host nation from the United States. So my mission, I made it very clear right from the beginning, right when I landed that, yes, I understand there's a hierarchy. I understand this is the way the state department and frankly, military does it.

but I need you to know I'm approaching all of you as my equals because I'm here to serve my country, my nation, my president, but also I'm here to serve you, which means I can only get better by learning from your already rich experiences. And so I treated everyone from the gardener to other ambassadors from other countries that were serving in the Hague the same.

And that's, that was actually very well known. So I would say the comrade camaraderie and service wasn't just top level. was, it was infiltrated through every, every level. And that frankly makes the mission stronger, more well functioning, healthier. People feel seen, people feel respected and ultimately everyone does a better job then.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, it's it's amazing how that squashing of the hierarchy and the establishment of sort of peer relationships makes that that much more obvious to everyone around you. And, you know, I love how you said that that basically the diplomat who may be serving, you know, in another space or even, you know, in another country to, you know, someone who's doing an incredible job at the embassy or a gardener or

Speaker 2 (06:58.232)
you know, anyone really has that same connectivity of just being human and that sort of humanity that connects us all. When you were doing this, I mean, you shared that this experience of service and the mission was sort of a love story for you and involved obviously some barrier breaking and some breaking of some cultural norms even, but especially to make it fruitful and also kind of as you just described, that much more endearing.

not to mention enduring, just definitely endearing as well. How much balancing of institutional protocol? Because hierarchy is not something that you can break with a magic wand or just really just get rid of right away. So how much balancing of that institutional protocol and maybe the systemic hierarchy that you described was there?

And of course, your own personality and that ethos and that mantra of trying to make sure that everyone is connected as peers. How much of that balancing was involved in truly making this a love story so that you can describe it as a love story?

Yeah, so it is a love story because, I mean, the love story's foundation for me was my love of the United States and my incredible gratitude for what this country has done for me. My core and my foundation of service was not ever to be someone, it was to do something. And so when you think about things that way, you approach things very, very authentically.

and you're not looking for your next job, you're not looking for your next promotion, you're doing it just because you are in love with your country, you're in love with the concept of what the United States has done for you and your family. So yes, there was certainly, I did approach this very differently, which was initially a bit surprising for both, frankly, the State Department, the embassy, it wasn't surprising in the world of politics because

Speaker 1 (09:02.744)
people, the White House taps the political nominee. And so they knew, and having worked 17 years in politics, everyone was pretty well aware of my person. Yeah, like very, I think I'm warm. I'm very affectionate. I'm very open. Going into the world of the State Department, it was very new for them because there is, they're all correct ways.

Who you were, yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:32.076)
but they're different. And so for me, it was barrier breaking in that not just that I was the first person of color, but I deeply believe that you bring your best self to the job and that's when you do the best job. And I knew that my number one priority was to serve my country and serve my president and go there for the bilateral mission that I was sent there for. And frankly, the multilateral mission being,

the highest ranking U.S. official in that country and that carries a lot of responsibility. I will say people have this belief that being an ambassador is a lot of party throwing and, you know, like whining and dining. And I know you and I have spoken about this. I worked 90 hours a week and it was almost completely all policy, you know, work. there were big issues, Ukraine, Israel, China, the semiconductors, like,

It was a heavy policy job, which you're reading and reading and reading and executing on that information. What I felt was you can do all that, but still be yourself. And so I did do that. And initially it was because myself, my personality isn't necessarily very stiff and it's, you know, and like what you're seeing now, like, let's say how I'm dressed. I would.

dress like this to very important meeting. Because what matters is what's in your brain and presenting in a professional way, but sharing the knowledge, having a positive relationship, showing the best of the United States, but also when you are yourself, frankly, the stakeholders on the other side, the interlocutors.

They view you as a trustworthy person if they see you as being authentic. And that was something that I was told many, many times in the Netherlands by the Dutch, which they really appreciate authenticity there. And they said initially it was pretty well known within their government that she is very different than what we've seen before and even what we experienced, but she is as real as it comes.

Speaker 1 (11:52.726)
And then I immediately, my stock with them went through the roof because they trusted what I was saying was true. I was not dancing around things, but I was also, did it with kindness. I did it with a lack of ego because I viewed the relationship to be one of equals. We're learning from each other. And so, and in the embassy also, in the mission, they initially, were, as I mentioned, a little

Not everyone, but some people were startled by how I did business. was walking around. I was saying hi to people. was sitting in the lunch room with them. would be like, you know, I would be hanging out with a maintenance crew, you know, and it was. Yes. And then they saw one, it was authentic because you never know when someone comes in, is this real? Is the other shoe going to drop? I had many, many friends that have, that came to visit me while I was in Netherlands.

You're being you, basically.

Speaker 1 (12:51.8)
So then even at the embassy, they started seeing it was almost indirectly a referral to all of them. Like this woman has friends from when she was eight years old. She has friends with you. It was all very positive. And frankly, how well I do at these meetings with the Dutch, it trickles down to every level of the embassy. So they ultimately saw like this very new and different style they hadn't experienced.

there was no sunlight between Shefali in professional settings and Shefali talking to my friend when I was six years old. It's not a show. And when I was leaving, I will say one of the folks in the Dutch government, really lovely woman said to me, it was after the election and people knew I was leaving and she said to me, wow, it must've been so hard for you.

It's not a show.

Speaker 1 (13:46.722)
to be yourself in such an environment that's not like this. And I answered her with the opposite, which was it would have been much, much harder for me to be someone I'm not. And so when she registered that, it made all the sense in the world.

You know, it's funny you mentioned that, it would have been much harder for you to not behave that way. And for that matter, being in an environment where there's policies, there's, there's protocols. And I love how you mentioned that, you know, your, your aspiration, of course, is always more about what you do than who you become or who you are. I'm imagining that, of course, for those who may not necessarily be familiar with this whole idea of just being yourself and being authentic and gaining trust that way.

That takes practice for them to have to actually like go through that and see that. certainly this of course made some great inroads with the Dutch. Do you think that this made any big inroads in the State Department?

Yeah, it actually did. Yeah, it did. I do know that. So I'll first say at the so after the election, the State Department, the Blinken State Department released their list of top 12 political ambassadors around the world. And I was so thrilled when I was on that list. It's called the Sue B. Cobb Award. And I think I mean, it was a testament because I

All of these folks on that list were incredible and we all brought something new and different to the role. But yes, it did have inroads at State also. We were also, and I'm talking about the Blinken State Department, the Biden State Department. My embassy, had 450 people who worked for me and we were the leading DEIA forward mission in all of Europe for the United States and we were featured for that.

Speaker 1 (15:44.512)
Along with the bilateral work, I was also on my own working on DEIA, Holocaust Remembrance, uplifting women, going into lower socioeconomic neighborhoods, doing things that had never been done before. But the State Department, because the way I did things, young women at the State Department, specifically young women of color, they, didn't realize, it was like rushing through

all of their circles, like you need to see what this one's doing in the Netherlands.

It's like a magnet that everyone is trying to just say, hey, take a look.

So our social media was also very, very authentic. Like, again, we did a lot of policy work, but my focus was to connect with the Dutch. And so our social media was very loving and very open and frankly lighthearted. It was running through the State Department, what I was doing, and it also became known among circles, she's really open.

If you reach out to her, because you know, this again, in the State Department, there's the stratification. So a lot of someone who's working deep in the State Department has been trained to you don't email an ambassador directly, but they all heard not only does Shefali like that she responds. He does phone calls with you. She does Zooms with you. She mentors.

Speaker 2 (17:14.455)
She's gonna ask for you, yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:19.85)
And so it was, it was rushing all through and I was told that there were multiple people of color that were trying, that were applying to come and serve in the Netherlands because I was there and there were many that came. then when there, I left on January 19th. And so there's been some changes, but it made me feel very, very good that it resonated. I will also say that the way we operated affected women of color.

people of color in the Netherlands too, because they had never seen the topics I was focused on. They had never seen that happen before. And so, and they also heard about how open I was. And so they were always trying to do events with us and my public diplomacy team was so busy. My Paul Econ team was so busy because we were getting so many requests and I rarely, rarely said no, because I felt...

It was so important to show that the United States is about accessibility, about kindness, about... I walked into this role and I openly would say, this is the United States. I'm an immigrant to the US, grew up with nothing, up being raised by a single mom who worked two minimum wage jobs. This is what can happen. I am the United States and my job now is to both...

You know, I am my ancestors wildest dreams and also pay it forward. So yes, there was movement both at state and at the mission and with the Dutch just by the sake of being yourself. Now I do want to add, when I say being yourself, I would often tell people that doesn't mean I'm doing this so every person after me is like as joyful and being yourself means I'm being myself. the next person

can therefore be themselves.

Speaker 1 (19:14.658)
They can be themselves. And so if they're whatever they are, but they're themselves. Yeah. And so that's I did it for me, but I did it for others also.

Yeah, I love that in the sense that it's not a blueprint to duplicate, but actually to now sort of like accelerate for people afterwards. You're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. After a quick break, let's come back to our conversation with Shefali Razdan Duggal. Stay tuned.

Speaker 2 (19:49.304)
Conversation. It's the antidote to apathy and the catalyst for relationships. I'm Abhay Dandekar and I share conversations with global Indians and South Asians so everyone can say, trust me, I know what I'm doing. New episodes weekly wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Speaker 2 (20:11.704)
Hi, I'm Vivek Murthy. I'm the 21st Surgeon General of the United States, and you're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing.

Speaker 2 (20:27.68)
I am Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi. I am Congressman Ro Khanna. I am Congressman Sri Thanedar. Hi, I'm Congressman Ami Bera

Hi, I'm Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal.

Hi, I'm Suhas Subramanyam and you're listening to Trust Me I Know What I'm Doing.

Welcome back to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. Let's rejoin our conversation now with Shafali Razdan Duggal. You touch upon a couple of things here which are really striking for me because one, the thought of authenticity and transparency and kindness and availability and access, those aren't always the descriptors we use for people in sort of high positions of either power or at an institution like the State Department.

And yet, you know, the climate that we find ourselves in, and this was true, this has probably, you know, been evolving for many administrations now, but of course, they are climates of tribalism and exclusivity, particularly that sort of like toxicity of that tribalism tends to be growing. And so your experiences tend to be sort of like a much, much more refreshing perspective on that. And obviously it didn't come without its challenges and whatnot, but

Speaker 2 (21:45.304)
How have times changed now? And especially as we go forward, how easy or difficult is it to be an American diplomat right now? Especially in that backdrop of tribalism and toxicity, especially because it just feels like at least the perception is that those are winning.

Yeah. Well, I don't know where that might be the perception. know internationally it was a big shift. It's a big shift from what we were doing, not just the diplomats, but the government was doing to now. I'm not serving as a diplomat right now, but what I do know is that the career folks that

often start in their twenties and it's for pure, pure love of country. They are not doing it for the money. Cause I can tell you they, there is not money to be had in this. This is for pure love of country duty to the concepts, the incredible foundational concepts of the United States. So they're, they are charged with executing upon the policies of

whatever administration are in place. What I always used to say, because there were often young people, as in any country, young people who are the ones who are challenging the most as they should. people asked me, because if there was an issue with something with the Biden administration, I would be at universities and young people would ask very thoughtful questions of, passionately.

Sure.

Speaker 2 (23:28.846)
Passionately.

thoughtfully, well, what if you don't agree? Yeah. And so I had the very simple answer of if you are serving your government, wherever you are in the world and you don't agree and you can't execute upon it, then you need to leave that job. it's not to say that the diplomats now agree or disagree. Their job is to be neutral. And so that's also why, Abhay, it is particularly challenging, painful.

to see the mass firings and sometimes the volunteer retirements that are happening because these are people that put all their love into this country. And it was a bit surprising for them. Every organization, whether governmental or private, can certainly clean up. I get that. Complacency can happen. I completely understand that.

I think that's why for a lot of us, it was very hard to see people who put their heart and soul into their jobs that now somewhat, not always, but sometimes arbitrarily are being let go because each person has a soul. Each person has a family. Each person had hopes and dreams. Now, what I will say is in this, I am in eternal optimist. People do know that we have had.

ups and downs in our democracy many times in our relatively short 250 year history of the United States, but resilience and goodness does always win. And I believe that we're just in a moment of self-reflection and it is

Speaker 1 (25:18.018)
You know, you were mentioning tribalism. I will say tribalism and exclusivity. I've always been, those are antithetical to me as a human, as an immigrant to the U.S. because this country is based off of the thoughtful brilliance of both people that have been here for generations and people that come here seeking to better their lives and also improve the United States.

So it's not to anyone's benefit to further exclude them. It's really not. But the concept of the United States will stand firm, but we're in a moment.

I think we can safely say that.

Yeah, but I do have faith, you know, that it will come back around. it's, you know, when that'll happen, you know, quietly, I have my own hopes. it will. But we're in a difficult moment. think that a very important thing to focus on also is that we cannot lose the hope of goodness prevailing because when that happens, or when we become complacent,

That's when things fail.

Speaker 1 (26:31.458)
That's when, yes, mean, that's when the systems do start really breaking. have to, now does everyone fight back in the same way? No, one person's through the ballot box. One person is through making a donation. One person, it's by talking to their children about, I need you to know that this, what you're seeing at whatever moment in time is not necessarily the way we should be conducting our lives.

Everyone does it their own way. think it is very important to mention. So as you mentioned, Cincinnati in the beginning, born in India, grew up in Cincinnati, grew up around exceptionally, exceptionally conservative humans. And I always found a way to have common, some kind of thread of commonality. So as we are dealing with people,

I do want to emphasize it is important to not make people our enemies. know, adversaries are not enemies. They're just, have different thinking, you know, short of flat out racists, which I probably draw the line here as well. like, just to try to find something in common with someone and, and then the tribalism, even if it's like shed by like a little by little,

it will start evaporating.

I totally agree with that. And it's so wonderful to be reminded of that over and over again, right? I mean, we can't remind ourselves enough of that. Through our plurality, we bring unity. We find that optimism. There's hope all around. Many different ways of doing that, like you mentioned, and people don't always have the same pace of this or even the same urgency sometimes, but there's a lot of importance in listening. There's a lot of importance in engaging, and we have to keep that optimism certainly all around us.

Speaker 2 (28:27.054)
I to go back to one of the things that you mentioned of sort of, you know, your own story. And it was obviously so moving and you clearly were very emotional when you were sworn in as ambassador. Vice President Harris obviously was, you know, performing that ceremony with your, you had your hand over the Gita, your mom, your husband were there as witnesses. How much of that story, we talked about this earlier, but how much of that story of connecting the dots here as an immigrant from India?

as an Indian American, as a daughter of a single mom, as a daughter of Ohio, for that matter, how much has all of that really kind of informed your work, but particularly added to your view of patriotism in a way that really binds and translates to this view of possibility and of collectivism here.

help us connect the dots of that particular story now to American patriotism in the 2025 that we're in.

Yeah, thank you. So in brief, you mentioned a few things. So born in India, raised in Cincinnati, raised by a single mom, as I mentioned, she worked two minimum wage jobs. We lived in a one bedroom apartment. I'm a two time assault survivor. Also once when I was 24, once when I was 29, and when I was 29, I was seven months pregnant, times by strangers.

two time anorexic. So I feel like I've experienced a lot of different things. And I deeply believe going back to, mean, it all went into a pot and I had to decide what to do with all this trauma. And I made the decision of

Speaker 1 (30:27.412)
looking forward, being positive, treating others with love and kindness. I never wanted people to feel the way I did at certain points in my life. And I realized that by God's grace, first and foremost, and then working really hard, working with integrity, working with really kindness, lack of ego is huge.

having no expectation, just working for love of country because at the end of the day, looked at every millimeter that I was moving was a millimeter that could only happen in the United States because this is a country at its very base that does not care. Abraham Lincoln has this great quote that says, I'm destroying this quote, but he effectively says, I don't care who your grandfather is.

what are you going to do? Right. You know, and that's effectively how I approach things, which is this is a country that doesn't care who your parents are, doesn't care how much money you have, doesn't care about your connections. What it does care about is how hard are you going to work? And those are the people that start making movement. Now,

what level of movement that varies, but that's where my sense of patriotism came from. Because I thought there was no other country that could lift my mother up who would have been thrown away, thrown away in many other countries in the world. My father left her in a lurch and we haven't seen him for decades and decades and decades. And she got married at 20, which is not so late in India, but like, you know, I had...

the typical and yes, your husband till her wedding day and like had no skills when he left. So what was she going to do? Yes, she had two jobs and it was a lot and she worked the bone. But where else could she do that? She was able to get a car. Where else could she do that? And so I developed this deep sense of patriotism from that point forward. So that informs every single

Speaker 1 (32:37.506)
thing I do. And it's also the base of what I look at everything if something difficult happens in my life, or around me, I always base it to, but I've been through so much worse, right, you know, and so nothing seems impossible to me, because or nothing really gets to me so deeply in stalls me because I always think I've been through worse, I've been through worse. And so

That's how it informed my work. Now what I will also say is coming up and whether it's spoken about or not, in politics there's a tremendous amount of ego sometimes.

Really? Come on.

Yeah, yeah, not for me. But like, I remember coming up, whether it was in politics or even let's say, sometimes as ambassador, and how often I felt overlooked. you know, for any number of metrics, it could have been, you know, you can make the guesses what they could be. And it could be as simple as I'm a nice person, or it could be something more complex, whatever the reasons were.

I got overlooked so often and I remember how that felt every time. I may not have voiced it. I may not have complained about it to anyone around me, but I always remember how badly it felt when someone dismissed me, whether it was for a position or even at a moment. Like if I was in front of an elected and there was this enormous ego around that elected and I used to think that was normal.

Speaker 1 (34:21.058)
I'm like, that's just the way they are. Then when I became a principal myself, you know, a principal meaning the ambassador, you know, like the main person there. I thought that, boy, I looked back at that, those moments of, hey, and I realized that was a choice that those people made to behave like that. And I'm making the choice to not do that because I remember how that gardener felt when no one talked to them. I remember.

I've been told that so many times by people that you saw me when the other people just walked right by me and you came and talked to me. So that also frankly fuels into my sense of patriotism because to be a grateful American is this is a country that is a meritocracy. So at what point do you think you're better than someone else? Because that's not a meritocracy.

Speaker 2 (35:22.062)
just called it for what it is, right?

I was getting into our kids watching, but I was kidding.

But you know what? It's amazing because in a way, letting go of ego, trying to boil it down to the basics of just don't be a jerk. When it comes to being seen, being heard, making sure that you're not being overlooked, you've of course spent many, years in organizations and rooms and cultivating deep relationships, building a culture.

of exactly what you just meant, which is feeling included, making sure you include others around you, widening the tent for people, advancing equity, you know, in the Democratic Party and in other places, Emily's List and, you know, on campaigns. And then, of course, driving a strategy that's built around that and executing on that strategy. And whether it is in finance or fundraising, like you said, you know what? Look, just everyone, don't be a jerk.

When you are living that example and you know what it's like to actually be overlooked and you know what it's like to have gone through trauma, but the people around you are not necessarily living with that same kind of ethos and they have egos and they have their hierarchical ways of thinking of things, what's the secret for them and even for you of unlearning?

Speaker 2 (36:52.184)
How have you had to, in a way, of deprogram people away from those kinds of things? And how do you go about the sort of unlearning or the relearning process? How do you share that kind of unlearning in a way that doesn't feel like you're preaching either?

Absolutely. So actually, as with all things, it's what you do, not what you say. Right. So I actually, let's say for instance, whether it was in that job or my everyday life before I went after I'm home here in San Francisco, like I'm not actually telling people what to do or how to act. You know, if I would see someone behaving badly, in my opinion, I wouldn't tell them, gosh,

you would do so much better if you were nicer because that's not, that's just not my style. I would just react by continuing to be myself. And frankly, consistency is the key. know, whether it's that person finally absorbing it and that person may never absorb it. And that's not my job to make someone else a better person. It's not, it's not my job. What my job is to be the best version of myself.

to create positive energy around me. And if you choose to absorb that or not, that is your decision. If you come and approach me with a sense of arrogance for whatever, whether it's professional or personal, I will react as myself. You can choose how you then deal with that. Often people, what I will say is people like, you know, they view the world through their own vision. So if a person comes through with their own trauma,

and they've chosen a different way. I chose one way to behave, which was I want to heal myself and I want to heal. I want to heal as much as I can the world around me because I don't want them to feel the way I did. Other people react differently. Now, if they react differently to their trauma, it is there. It is a conscious choice that everyone makes every day how they want to behave. It's their choice. I had actually a sign outside of my office, my app.

Speaker 1 (39:00.588)
my direct office in the embassy that and I had I everyone knows I love quotes and I actually infused that every everywhere in the embassy you suck when they're like, that's the ambassador put up a quote in like, there's a quote in front of my office was

Was that the embassy's version of bad dad jokes for the moment? There's another Shefali quote coming.

No, actually, they used to always tease me like, what's the quote? In every speech, there was always a quote. They're like, what you're going to put in? And so you would always see people smile. That was my thing. That's been my thing since I was like very young. But there was a quote outside of my office that was so simple. It was a big sign that said, work hard and be nice. It was just so simple. We don't know why people behave the way that they do. Right? Like we don't know. giving them the grace of maybe it's a moment.

or maybe it's a personality, I don't know, but we just have to remain consistent. And then eventually a trust does develop over time when they see, again, going back to authenticity that, this person's for real and she's still approaching me in this way. Okay. And there were a lot of barriers that did come down because of that. Once they realized it was genuine.

And I wonder if that translates to at the highest levels and at the levels of motivation for those who were earlier in that journey, that it allows people to not only cultivate that trust, but they'd let down their guard. And then hopefully that that ego dissipates a little bit. You're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. After a quick break, we'll come back to our conversation with Shefali Razdan Duggal. Stay tuned.

Speaker 1 (40:22.574)
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Every story told is a lesson learned and every lesson learned is a story waiting to be told. I'm Abhay Dandekar and I share conversations with global Indians and South Asians so everyone can say, trust me, I know what I'm doing. New episodes weekly wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (41:11.17)
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Speaker 2 (41:43.394)
Hi there, I'm Abhay Dandekar and you're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. Let's rejoin our conversation now with the recently retired United States ambassador to the Netherlands, Shefali Razdan Duggal.

You you mentioned the Lincoln ethos of, I don't care who your grandparents were, I need to care about the work you're doing today and what you mean to the country. And having that sort of agnostic background, the mission at hand is to improve and advance.

the mission of the United States. In a way, we're living in a climate where, seemingly at least, people do care about your ancestry. People do care about who your grandparents were because they translate that to what they think will equate to your forthcoming work. So how have you dealt with those two contrasts?

Well, it kind of goes back to a couple questions ago, a couple comments ago about the base concept of the United States, the foundation of the United States, what the founders envisioned the United States to be is not always consistent with what people practice, but it will, I really do deeply believe that it will get back to goodness, but it is difficult now because

things that were really uplifted. And frankly, this isn't a Democrat Republican thing because I've been saying this, like there are tremendous, tremendous, tremendous Republicans. And I'm very bipartisan. I have so many friends that are Republicans. I have so many friends that are Trump Republicans. I have friends that are senior in the Trump administration. I adore them. But it is incorrect to think that there is a certain superiority of one

lineage over another. It's incorrect. mean, that is not what this country is about. This is a country where you don't have to be born of a certain cell makeup or even born in this country. Like, I'm naturalized. I'm a naturalized citizen. the fact is, like Madeleine Albright actually said this when she was secretary of state, when she was going through her hearing where she said,

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I'm a chosen American and sometimes we have almost more loyalty and more dedication because we chose this path. And we have so much gratitude. So it is incorrect to think that there is a superiority and it's confounding to me. And it actually, it's hurtful. It's hurtful to people that have dedicated so much of their lives, not just for their own benefit to come to the United States.

Maybe, you know, a family comes here for a better life, but then they do contribute to the greatness of the United States. Like, I know people talk about the CEOs and, okay, fine, that's all true. Let's not even talk about that. Let's just talk about the incredible culture of the United States. It's multifaceted. This country was based on people fleeing another continent because they felt persecuted.

So what do you say to those people who, given this exact idea of everything that you just mentioned, the kind of foundational principles of Americanism, what do you say to those people who may be Indian American or not? What do you say to those people who are like, you know what, boy, I really don't know if the American ideal is alive anymore. I think I may need to move abroad.

These have been proud Americans for so long.

I know, and I'm hearing that from some friends. Yeah. You know, I've actually had some friends who moved abroad for a temporary period of time. What I would say to that is the United States is not the definition of who's occupying, whomever it is, the Oval Office. That is not the United That's even in like the very best of times. It is not...

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who won humans vision. It's not the concept of the United States is stronger and greater and more resilient. Now that said, there are moments that can move the country back a few steps and it could take the next leadership team some time to correct that. And frankly, takes, know, because my experience now is more internationally based.

it takes time for them to develop the trust again, because, you know, there's the simple concept of it takes years for trust. And that's like in personal behavior too, right? It takes years for trust and develop, and it could just be a moment when it all falls apart. And so you have to rebuild that. So that is a factual thing as well. Now for people who are wanting to move and who have moved, that is what is best for their mental state of mind. I cannot...

say to them what is right or wrong, it's what's best for them. But what I would say is to remember that administrations don't determine the greatness of a country that from its birth, 250 years ago to now or in recent times could become the greatest country on earth. That comes with a certain, as we talked about, ethos of this country.

And that does not get wiped away from a moment in time. moment in time will be properly historically documented, but it doesn't change the foundation of the goodness of this country there. And we need to also make sure we continue to say that because whether it's the younger generation of the United States of Hay or let's even go on the other end, the war.

I'm very close to multiple World War II vets that by God's grace, they're healthy and spunky. And, I just went to visit 104 year old and a 99 year old in New York city. They fought, you know, during World War II for our country. We need, it's not just the younger generation. We need to remind Holocaust survivors. We need to remind civil rights leaders, elders, but also outside of the country, these incredibly bright humans.

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that want to come, whether it's to open a store or send their children to college. Like, we need to keep enough of a goodness there so they believe that they still can see the United States as a shining city on a hill.

Yeah, that's a great reminder for, I mean, you and I are both parents of adult children. And what it makes me think of is, that it's not just literally the prospect of youth and innovation and how things get moved forward, but it's reminding ourselves that we have so many lessons to learn and really take forward from the past. And those people who have lived through just completely just era changing events and

Lots and lots to be of incredible Americans that are reminding of this every day. Let me get you out of here on this one because we've talked a lot and wound our way through patriotism and your service. you know, certainly what it takes to lead, whether it's, you know, leading for party or leading for country or leading for mission for that matter. But there's a tulip now named after you and the Tulipa Shefali. think I'm pronouncing that correct.

Right? the Tulipa Shefali, right? This is this pink, fuchsia-colored flower. And the symbolism, of course, of that in the Netherlands of so much caring and kindness and prosperity and good wishes, lots of superlatives there, right? When you think about that tulip and you think about embarking on new chapters now, right? Whether that be inspiring or leading or writing or, you know, future service.

How does that tulip maybe symbolize some of your future aspirations?

Speaker 1 (50:04.398)
That's such a, that is such a wonderful question. Thank you. And yes, there was a tulip named after me in the Netherlands, the Dutch named the tulip to them. I equate it to it's our bald eagle. Like it is, it is their symbol. And I'm the first ambassador from any country to have a tool named after them. And they had asked me what color would you like? You know, they surprised me and told me, you know, it was through our, during an event and two gentlemen,

let me know we're going to be doing this. I was like, I was, I was so confused. I'm like, what, And like the staff were running after them and they're like, yeah, we decided. I told them my favorite color and then they force-bloomed a brand new one for me. And, uh, it's, it's shown in their gardens. It's really nice. It means a lot. Now why that was an important moment, how it does have a connectivity to what you were saying with new chapters.

It was important, of course, you know, on a personal level, like what an honor, but it was very at the State Department. was viewed as such a symbolic moment because it showed that the Dutch who was, they were the first country to have ever acknowledged the United States to be independent. So it's our oldest ally from the United States. For them to do this was a symbol.

a message to the White House and to the State Department and to the United States broadly, we like how they're doing business in our country right now. We like how this mission is operating and how they're treating us. while it's so sweet, it also was a lot, was a bigger, much bigger message they were sending. And so how does that connect to new chapters of which there are

different things I'm doing right now and I'm working through right now is it was a very big message to me of again, going back to the beginning of what we talked about, stay true to yourself because when you do things from your soul, from your heart, from the depths of being genuine, having good intentions in the world, even in very complicated

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high profile moments, you can still be all of those things, be incredibly effective, but also do it with love and kindness. That to me was incredibly symbolic to everything. I had lived like that before, but it was almost like in this professional, very professional setting, because I say politics and policy are

You know, while interconnected, political work and policy work, they're very different personalities. And it told me that whatever chapters are unfolding for me next to continue to trust my instinct, continue to be myself. Remember that while most people receive it well, the ones that don't

True.

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don't focus too much on unless you can honestly learn from them. You sometimes you really can like Hillary Clinton said that like pay attention. You could learn something from people that have challenges with you. But sometimes it's just from their own issues. And so it really was comforting to me. that's that tulip. That's a good way of wrapping it all up. But that's how

I know to move forward in this next exciting chapter of my life, being myself, doing things from a good place, having kindness. But at the same time, I do want to say, while you can be very kind and open, one must also be thoughtful, which is sometimes you know where to be polite, but keep the barriers around. And that's not an unhealthy thing. That's actually a very...

good thing to do. That shows growth emotionally and spiritually. Still be polite, but no intentions of others.

Well, I think that's, that's, know, very elegantly stated, but more than anything else, staying true to yourself, staying true to your country, staying true to mission, and more importantly, doing it with kindness and thoughtfulness and purpose. It obviously is something that you're doing so well. Shefali, thank you so much for joining me today. What an absolute treat. And I hope we can catch up again in the future.

see you soon. Thank you and thank you for the opportunity to be on. It was just such a delight. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (54:53.4)
Thanks so much, Shefali, and you can learn more about Shefali and her work at ShefaliRazdanDuggal.com. Shout outs to everyone who went back to school, to Rajeev Ram and Yuki Bhambri at the US Open, and to my San Francisco girl, Kirtee Mehta, for being such a good friend. Till next time, I'm Abhay Dandekar.