TRUST ME I KNOW WHAT I'm DOING

Abhay (00:00.334)
Hello, my name is Swetha Katti. I am Director of Education at Pranthi NGO based in India, which empowers daughters of sex workers from India's red light areas. Pranthi is now the only school which is run by sex workers' daughters for sex workers' daughters, I think, in the world. So I am very proud to be part of that. And you're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. My name is Abhay Dhandekar.

and I share conversations with talented and interesting individuals linked to the global Indian and South Asian community. It's informal and informative, adding insights to our evolving cultural expressions, where each person can proudly say, trust me, I know what I'm doing.

Hi everyone, on this episode of Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing, we share a conversation with the Director of Education for Kranti, Shweta Kutty. Stay tuned.

Abhay (01:03.67)
Okay, this shouldn't come as a surprise, but I'm deeply honored that you're actively listening and grateful for you right now. You made a choice and an effort to engage here with trust me, I know what I'm doing and make it a part of your day and even a small part of your life. So I appreciate you listening on all the podcast platforms, rating and writing reviews, following on those good old social media places and sharing this with all your friends and family. This episode as always is available on YouTube. So please check out the full video there too. Now, if you've really got something to get off your chest, celebrate.

or are just feeling friendly, send a message over to info at abhidhandikar.com as I'd love to hear from you. Now, courage, empowerment, and self-determination are describers that sometimes get thrown around a bit lightly. But I believe they carry a different value, a great deal of gravitas, and certainly a different weight when it comes to my next guest. Shweta Karti is an inspiring leader at Kranti, an organization in India dedicated to empowering girls from red light districts to become agents of social change.

Shweta herself grew up in the Kamathipura sex worker community of Mumbai, where her grandmother was a commercial sex worker, her mother was forced into factory labor and sex work, and she and her sister were raised in a loft above a brothel. With this backdrop and significant personal childhood trauma that included physical and sexual violence, when she was 16 years old, Shweta found her way to Kranti, an organization founded by Robin Chaurasia.

that offered shelter, therapy, and education to trafficked girls and daughters of sex workers. With Granti's support, Shweta became the first woman from an Indian red light district to study abroad, garnering a scholarship to study at Bard in New York. And now after many twists and turns, Shweta serves as Granti's director of education, courageously advocating for girls and women who have worn a societal cloak of shame, anger, fear, and trauma.

by now amplifying the strength, love, resilience, and kindness of their communities. As Shreetha recently wrote so elegantly, don't want your pity. I want your partnership. I want you to believe as I do that the next revolutionaries, educators, and change makers are already here in brothels, in slums, in refugee camps, waiting not for rescue, but for opportunity. So I was truly honored to catch up for a conversation with this amazing leader.

Abhay (03:21.147)
And I should offer some pause here that the themes that we're dealing with today are certainly triggering and heavy. We caught up to talk about everything from Kranti's mission of holistically nurturing future leaders to breaking common biases and misconceptions and Treta's very personal journey through it all. Often some may look at that journey as sort of a breakthrough to cross over beyond a finish line. But with so much focus on empowerment, it seems really much more like Kranti offered Treta a new beginning of opportunity. So I wanted to know how she felt

about the weight of responsibility in this work that goes far beyond herself. So I think when initially, when I became the first girl from the red light area and the kind of attention I received at that time, I was pretty young and I didn't understand the complexities of emotions I was feeling. I was excited, I was scared. I felt all of this pressure because I the, because I grew, I studied in a Marathi medium school growing up.

And I didn't, spoke very little English, but Kranti gave me the resources to read and I was just enjoying, I think I loved learning and I still do. And, but I think that the pressure that I felt then was a whole different thing because I just, didn't understand. But like, because of so much, because I was like being interviewed at CNN and a couple other, you know, big news outlets and I felt very scared. And I think that pressure was a lot, but I think now.

At Kranti, I don't feel super pressured because I feel I have a great community that is trying to take care of me. And I think I have also learned to take on things that I want and not the things that I don't want. And so I think I'm learning to balance that. at the same time, I, yeah, of course it is a lot to take on the responsibility of these girls, like my fellow, I don't know what to even call them, my friends who are

new at Kranti, their journeys and their, I mean, I'm really excited for them to explore their lives. And that really gives me the, that gives me energy for the work. But I have, we have great team at Kranti that really helps. Yeah. Right. No, I mean, it's a definite team effort. I'm imagining when people who have not necessarily had the weight of the experiences that you have, when they reflect back on either some of their own background, their history, their childhood, their adulthood,

Abhay (05:44.838)
they are certainly faced with a great sense of giving and a sense of trying to become, integrate back into their communities and sort of give back. Has that notion of giving actually taken on maybe a different spirit now, especially as you've come back and tried to work with some of these, as you said, it's kind of difficult to exactly name who they are, right? They're your friends, they're your...

people that you work with. But so, I mean, has that sense of giving actually taken on maybe a new meaning for you? You know, the sense of giving was funny enough because the way our community is described is like this dark hole that nobody can leave behind. But fortunately for me, these positive and strong sense was embedded then, like the sense of giving.

It's part of the community. That's how you survive in that environment. You take care of each other. That's the only way you can survive because the society doesn't have your back. The police, the support system that should have your back, they don't. So you've only got each other. So I think that sense was always there. with Kranti's work and the kind of work Kranti has done, I think then it gave me a whole different spirit and excitement. Look what is possible.

Because then there was not just dread, like there's not only dread, but my god, my god, there is nobody. But there is somebody now, like there is Kranti, who has constantly worked on providing these opportunities, a support system to the two girls like me, who have really, I mean, because of the opportunities, of course opportunities, but also the kind of support system and love that was possible at Kranti really gave us the wings to fly.

in the directions that we wanted to. So I think that possibility really gives me a lot of joy and excitement for the girls that are here. And my God, the girls who are here now are so brilliant and amazing and full of life. We have girls from age 8 to 20. We have about 25 to 30 girls right now. And just to see their joy, their joy of learning. So it's natural. The giving is natural because I mean, I don't think I...

Abhay (08:10.084)
there was anything else I was supposed to do with this life. think I was supposed to do this. Yeah. I think, I mean, this job, this work is giving me much more than I am giving to the work or Kranti or the girls because in this world right now, especially, it's very difficult to find grounding, focus and purpose because there's so much always going on because I have something to ground me. I know that I have to come back to this. I have to stay sane for this. So that really keeps me going.

Yeah, I mean, it's a different sense of purpose, but it seems like every day there's some fuel to that. know, Kamathipura, the neighborhood where you grew up and where at least before the age of 16, you were prior to Kranti was certainly a place of, you know, I think few generations of legacy even for you and certainly a burden, right? As you mentioned, like there's the perception and the reality, but certainly a place where in general,

there is undoubtedly a lot of shame and anger and sexual trauma and violence and fear, but also a place of deep loyalty and compassion and love and devotion. you know, I'm curious if you can walk us through how you came to recognize some of those contrasts and.

which can be very difficult for many to understand and perhaps why those contrasts are so important. Yeah, I think that only happened when I came to Krantik. Before that, wherever you see, like in media, in the newsletter or newspapers, in TV, in movies, there's a certain portrayal of the red light districts and sex workers and the community.

And which is attached with a lot of shame and underlying, you know, there is just the way it's portrayed. And growing up there, I mean, when I'm home, I'm home. Like for this, for somebody, it's, oh, she's in a brothel and she's in a red light district, right? But like for me, it's home. This is where I am. You know, I'm living with women who care for me, who love me, who look after me when my mom's at work, you know? And for me, that was home. But the moment I would leave that community, a sense of shame and

Abhay (10:32.166)
you know, feeling like, you know, wanting to hide would come up because of, you know, these underlying conditional ways of how our society should be, how women should be, what, you know, what is normal sense of work. And I mean, it's so complex that we didn't, I mean, there was nobody to educate us about these things other than, of course, there were community organizations who would help during, you know, after school programs and other programs to help you with your mental health in other ways. Nobody really addressed the issue.

What is this? You know why there's so much shame and stigma attached to it? Just like, okay, I mean, whenever a donor would show up, we would put on masks. So internalizing that shame, right? Like the moment you put on a mask, that means you're not supposed to be seen. And of course there is safety in this and that, but there's also like, as a kid, what am I doing? I don't understand all of this. What I'm doing is I'm hiding myself. Yeah, you're faceless. Yeah, exactly. no identity. Exactly. And then when...

I came to Kranti. I remember the first day at Kranti, the moment I opened the door, it was a chaos. I used to think that there's, you know, it's going to be like a bunk bed, like a hostel system. will be like strict rules, a ward and all of that. And then I opened this door and there's like girls walking around laughing in shorts and Robin in the middle of the mess sitting on her beanbag and working on her laptop.

the room was so colorful and bright and with lot of light coming into the room. And I was like, wow, you know, that image really stayed with me because I think it's the positive light and the positive environment of the mindset. It's of course like what you believe brings out in your body and then that goes out with others, right? And then when, how we started addressing our community and because that they really started.

asking us like, how do you see your mothers? How do you see your community? And then I realized that I have been internalizing the external mindsets about my community, my women, my mothers, my aunts, but I've not explored what they are to me because they are my mother, my aunts, my family. And that's a community that is standing strong. still remember. And then that's when we started.

Abhay (12:51.952)
talking about the moments when we love. Like for example, every Sunday, everyone would make non-vegetarian food, chicken, mutton, this and that. And the community has incredible food because people are from Bangladesh, Nepal, and south of India, all different places. So the cuisine was incredible. Whatever you cook. Not to mention the friendships and the relationships that everybody has there.

because you're left to fend for each other, then you do. And I mean, we are humans, that's what we know best to do. For example, if my mother's made like a chicken curry, she would in a small bowl send it to her friend's house and a small bowl would come from their house. So sharing that culture, and then my brain, I started recognizing the positivity. My brain, those things started lighting up. And then I became happier the moments when I started recognizing, of course,

at the same time, recognizing the pain, recognizing the abuse, but they're not attaching it to myself or the women. Like they're not responsible. We're put in this situation. There's a society at large, should be responsible for this, for giving better services and support system, but they're not doing that. So I felt even more awe in the fact that that is the most difficult. Like women, of course they're doing the most difficult job.

but they are being shamed for doing it for survival. And yet in midst of that, they know how to love not only their kids, but women who are together in this journey and the families who they live together with, even with the hardships that come with everyday life in that community. When you think about exactly what you just explained, which is coming to terms a little bit with

those two pieces, right? The trauma that's inherent to living and being in this community, and yet the incredible amount of loyalty and support and community and food and those things that you described, they're two things that are integrated into exactly what it's like to actually be and exist in those areas in that community as a woman. When you explain this,

Abhay (15:11.164)
perhaps to your mother or to some of her friends or even to some of the women there. How do you go about actually sharing both of those aspects and why they're so tightly woven together? Do they have a similar kind of aha moment or is it a little bit more difficult without the backdrop of Kranti when you're explaining this to someone who is actually in that environment? Maybe not one of the girls, but maybe one of their family members.

I think what my experience has been, I've not necessarily gone and I never felt like I should go and educate freely because I felt... But then what really happened is the joy I felt, I would take it with my body. If I'm feeling joyful about certain things that my body will express and then that joy would... They would feel it and how we're treating them would change. For example, new set of Kranti Karees just started in our new home in Himachal.

last year in July. And by the way, I should mention that not necessarily with the notion of educating, but rather just explaining and sharing. I know, know. Yeah, but I think I never really went on to it. I think it happened experientially with like me feeling it and then feeling it being without having to say those specific things.

But then of course, like what happened really then, what really Kranti did, because it's a home, Kranti's home. we came in, we lived in, while we were in Bombay, we lived in rental apartments, which we got kicked out of every couple of, every two years because of you. And they would find out about where we're from. But all the mothers would come to Kranti's You know, party sometimes, like, you know, and at one point when they would have their own parties with like,

You know, they'll bring their own little drinks, they'll make drinks and they'll drink and they'll dance and you know, very unapologetically and just very like, you know, just have fun and the friendships. What I loved was of course the friendships back home also are still there, but the friendships between the mothers that developed and caring for each other. And I think that sense of, yeah, freedom and joy, I could really feel in them. and they seeing them, you know, how

Abhay (17:31.506)
The daughters are living completely freely in their own truth. I think it impacted very energetically rather than a dialogue. Of course the dialogue would happen in terms of, for example, when I was born, I didn't know my mother had ever done sex work. She was a factory worker to me and my aunt was a sex worker. We lived in a brothel.

But when we came to Kranti, which is when she felt she found the courage or she felt like she's safe enough to say those things to me and my sisters, because she didn't before that she thought, I don't know how this was going to go. You're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. After a quick break, let's come back to our conversation with Shweta Kutty. Stay tuned.

Abhay (18:26.14)
Conversation. It's the antidote to apathy and the catalyst for relationships. I'm Abhay Dhandekar and I share conversations with global Indians and South Asians so everyone can say, trust me, I know what I'm doing. New episodes weekly wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Abhay (18:45.81)
you

Hi, I'm Vivek Murthy. I'm the 21st Surgeon General of the United States. And you're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing.

Abhay (19:05.234)
Hi everyone, this is Shafiq Askhanna. Hello everyone, my name is Tim France. Hi, I'm Nisha Pahooja. I am the director of the documentary film To Kill a Tiger and you are listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing.

Abhay (19:24.208)
Hi, I'm Sanjeev Bhaskar. You're listening to Trust Me. I know what I'm doing.

Welcome back to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. Let's rejoin our conversation now with the Director of Education for Kranti, Shweta Kutty. You've written, I've read some of the things that you've written about knowing, know, the, I'm almost like the empathy that it requires to actually be able to lead in this space. And you've written about knowing the smell of a brothel corridor and living in fear of being sold or trafficked. How do you...

describe that empathy that it takes to now serve as a leader in helping to empower women in this particular space? I think for me, think the fear was so much from men than the women that I was growing up. With the fear existed safety at the same time in a strange way because I had the women to take care of me.

And then there still existed the fear of, you know, being exploited. then, and which was, mean, I was actually abused multiple times growing up because no matter, I mean, these things are, unfortunately find their way, unfortunately. But I mean, I think, I think women around me did the most to take care of me in those times. I think having lived that life and I mean, I don't come to this work with like a sense of, you know, I'm going to save. Like I don't feel that sense whatsoever.

I feel like this is my skill, this I know in my body, my spirit, and this is what I have to give back, and this is what I can give. And I think every time a girl now, because there are multiple times, they've been here over a year and then they open up about their sexual abuse by their stepfather, which happened with me as well, you know, their relationship, complicated relationship with their mothers, which is, mean...

Abhay (21:24.69)
The stories are different, but very familiar. So that sense of home with each other is there. The funny thing that is happening now, when Robin was running the show, mean, she still is and we are part of the team, but she still felt like, somewhere out there, right? Like, my God, she's so incredible. She's so smart and intelligent, you know, all of that. With me,

And my sister who's also working at Kranti now, the girls feel like, they can do it, we can do it. You know, because there's sense of family, a sisterhood. is no like somewhere out there. She's come from the same community. She's come from the same, you know, mothers and you know, so these dreams are not far away. Is what I love about this, what Kranti has achieved. It's amazing because

Some of the girls who are, for example, some of the Kranti girls are studying in the US, some are studying in Europe, and they come home because for most of us, this is home because our mothers have passed away or there are no other family, mothers are living in difficult conditions, and the safety still is at Kranti while they're making their own way in the world, of course.

And for these girls, look at my Didi from Rome. look at my Didi from Paris. Look at my Didi from the US. know, like for them, you know, it's closed the dreams. And I think that's what Kant is done. It's they've Kant is closed the gap between what was impossible. What was what seemed to be impossible is now very possible.

So I think that I would say empathy and love I feel like, you so much, like I feel so more than, you know, we share experience. For me, more than that is like you or me, I'm you and we're together. Like, you know, let's do this. And I don't know what's gonna change and what's gonna happen, but we have so much fun. I love these kids and they give me more like same for my sister as well. And the entire team, they give us so much.

Abhay (23:27.0)
love in return and more. And they don't even know what they're doing here. you know, most of them, like they feel sense of safety and they're studying, they're educated, you know, they're learning about the world. The older girls get it. What, know, what Gandhi is about the younger ones who we didn't think we will take on because they're eight year olds, nine year olds. For example, we have an eight year old who was raped by her biological father. And she's like, I don't want to go back.

just don't send me back. And there was one time I'm like, how are you doing? We kind of like, we did this mission to, you know, rescue her from her father, like, you know, because her father was hiding her and we just, anyway, we found a way to get her to Kranti. So one day I asked her, how are you doing today? And she said, I'm okay. She's like, then I said, how do you like it at Kranti? Are you enjoying? She loves coloring and painting. So we were having this conversation while she was painting.

And she's like, you know, I think about it sometimes about father and what happened. And I was like, okay, then what do you do? And she's like, she's an eight year old. And I'm like, okay. Then I was like, okay, what can I do? I mean, what could I have done? You know, and then I was like, okay, I said, you can come talk to me, you whenever you're feeling down or these thoughts come up. Then she's like, but then you will also leave.

I said, no, I will not leave. I'm here. I mean, I'm here for good. And I'm going to, you know, I may go away for a trip for a few days, but I will come back. And she said, okay. And I said, you can call me then. And then there was this one time when we, the staff went away because there are older girls are 20 and a couple of them really can take care of everyone. And they were back from their karate classes and watching movies. And they Saturday nights are their movie nights, Bollywood bullshit movies. And we went out for dinner because we had few guests, all this.

staff members and she started crying. like, where did they go? And she was like, why did you leave? And I'm like, I can't go for a dinner. She's like, no. And then, you know, we just had a playful conversation, but sense of safety matters at this age, right? Like the fact that, I mean, we're not, I'm not sure how equipped we are to take care of an eight year old, but we're glad. mean, to whatever extent we can, we will. And your, your lived experience, the

Abhay (25:52.107)
profound empathy that you have for the women and the girls of multiple generations now who have gone through this. I think that affords an eight-year-old at least the sense of someone they can talk to, at least have that shared kind of sisterhood and also that sense of safety that you mentioned. I'm listening to you narrate this.

I mean, just incredibly powerful story of this eight year old. And of course the stories of each girl carries the same kind of power. And I've listened and heard, I actually watched a mental visual exercise where you have taken people through the journey of a traffic team girl who enters a cycle of sex working and motherhood and then abuse and HIV illness and

Then of course the decision-making that goes through with each step along the way. And when I hear the story you just mentioned, and then I think about the story that you narrate or the decisions that you narrate in that exercise, in each of those times where you've had to carry others through that mental exercise or even help comfort or find a way to talk to this eight-year-old, have you yourself reflected how

your own feelings have at all changed with age and experience and being abroad and then also, you know, kind of as you mentioned, being at home. Has there been an evolution at all to my God so much? So much. feel like I've lived lifetimes in a lifetime. Yeah. Because the phases have been so different from each. And when I was when the when I had come to grant even I was 16, then when I went to the US, then I when I dropped out of

the car dropped out because of mental health issues. when I pursued on my healing journey, I had TB, almost died. Then I came back, then recovered, and then back at this. And I feel like it's never ending, the journey. I feel like you've had to make many of these decisions in the same way along the way, right? Not in the same ways, but yeah, leaving my family was not the easiest. Like it just was not. Like I am so, I cried for weeks.

Abhay (28:06.657)
weeping for like, you know, for my mother. Like I had such a difficult time leaving my mother and my sister. And, but like now all my sisters are at Kranti. My mother also works at Kranti. So I'm really grateful for how the journey has turned out. And because it also gives me the luxury to dedicate my life to Kranti because Kranti is taken care of, you know, my mother as well. But yeah, those, mean, I think we keep discussing at Kranti, like, a girl should not have to leave her family.

Right? But we do, unfortunately, we have to find our own potential, to reach our own potential, to find better resources for ourselves and then therefore for our family. So that has always been difficult because I think I really just miss the sense of, you know, the festivals we celebrated in the community, the joys we shared. Of course, it was difficult. It was not easy.

But that doesn't mean that I don't miss it. Like I don't miss those families. Like I miss women, the women that took care of me. They were my greatest joys. I still remember how well they took care of me, how much they loved me. And I feel so bad that I've taken their love for granted, their care for granted. I've never taken into account for like their care for me. Are there some girls who...

based upon some of that difficulty sometimes of being extricated from their families or missing their families so much, even within grantee and you know, they're not granted like any other organization may be prone to this, but are there some girls who where this doesn't work that they do need, they do need their families, they do need that sense of community. And of course they may go back to an environment like that and for that matter, continue in commercial sex work or other kinds of things.

I think one of the greatest thing about Kranti is that it never takes away the support, no matter if you leave Kranti. For example, the moment you've entered Kranti and if you leave even within a year or two years, Kranti will still look after your health insurance. Kranti will still provide for your mental health support.

Abhay (30:18.291)
and any medical emergencies and any support you need, like from a community sense or like for jobs or for anything. So the communication is always there. Like you're not left stranded just because you decided not to continue at Kranti. Yeah. I mean, it's not necessarily a black and white rehabilitation, right? It's not if you don't fit into art, it's not possible. I mean, and I think because Kranti works on a smaller scale, there's always an individual connection with every single person.

Yeah. And it seems like it's quite the longitudinal relationship building. Yeah. not going get anything else too. Yeah. You you spoke about this just recently, you know, just as we've been talking here, but like everywhere, right? The films, hospitals, social media, cultural influences. There are such heavy stigma and misconceptions that lead to just not only frank discrimination and marginalization,

but even contributors to disease and death. Exactly. mean... When you talk to people about some of these misconceptions and the just real incredible discrimination and marginalization that you have both faced and you see people face every day, what are the top things that people just frankly need to unlearn and they need to let go of when it comes to what they think they know?

about sex workers or this environment? I think one of the things that I think people need to recognize what courageous and resilient and strong women these women are. No matter how hard you make it for them to survive in this society, they still will come out very strong. So that resilience is, think people don't understand that people because I, and this is not problem with this whole victimhood mindset.

because you take away their power and agency the moment you make them victims. And you do not understand the intricacies of day-to-day life and courage and resilience and resourceful and skillfulness it takes to make it in daily life. What are you talking about? Can you spend a day or a moment in that circumstance? No, think about it. That's why we do that activity that you mentioned earlier, the travel tracking activity. And then it shakes people like, my God, these days,

Abhay (32:42.495)
Decisions are actually very difficult. They're not easy. They're not black and white. Right. And for me, I don't care what anybody thinks. For me, they're the strongest women on this planet. yet have, I mean, and they continue to do what they do with love, love for their children and kids. And of course, for whatever reason, it may be themselves or family or whatever reason, I don't think I or anybody else is in the position to judge because you're not in those

shoes. You're not in those circumstances. think that for most one needs to understand. And the fact that you have an opinion about this is a privilege for you to have an opinion, right? Right. But you're losing out, like, because I'm not going to be like, you know, you need to look, you're not understanding the reality of human capacity and capability and possibility. It's your loss, really. The moment you recognize the strength and resilience,

there's something that changes in the body and mind. You start seeing humans as equals and as, I I started feeling that way the moment I started seeing my resilience, I started seeing that every single human is resilient. It's not easy to survive in this world, especially with lack of resources, with marginalization due to systemic discrimination. How do you combat that, by the way? I mean, you know, how do you combat people from immediately judging? They do.

The judge and most of them don't like, I mean, we've also become very, I mean, because we've spoken about it so loudly and openly that a lot of people understand our work and KANTI just stands for itself. the word, I mean, when you speak to me, it's very different. Like you wouldn't think, my God, you know, like it changes the mindset. Like, I wouldn't think, you know, it's already a change the moment you engage with one of the KANTI guys, because there's a huge difference.

And then there is like, it's a shock because you see the potential and the capacity. think Robin had recently had a conversation with somebody and then she was briefing and she said that this woman said, know, Akanti's work only goes to show that there is no lack in capacity or potential, but there's definitely the only barrier is access and resource, nothing else.

Abhay (35:01.939)
in any community you take. And of course, consistent human support and that intention to keep on going. If you are able to, you're whole, if you're really whole in yourself, you will never judge another human being because you understand him in reality. And I think the calculus of how you then interact with that person, hopefully not only just changes.

And these women are beyond just their work, their women, their friends, their family, they have lovers, have, you know, the, I mean, we had a couple of moms who work at Kanthi, one of her boyfriends, we make fun of her, you know, and like the men are constantly hitting on her, you know, like, so we would, you know, so these, there are these, these, these conversations too, there's this fun, like we, I mean, now I'm older, so I can have a drink with them, you know, and it's a very different relationship.

There's that, there's a human-ness to us in this community, right? Yeah. And I don't think that it's important to recognize, of course, that, again, you go from being this faceless, unidentified person with the perception of no sense of self, and at the same time, there is the exact opposite of that, right? Each person has their own identity, their own feelings, their own joys, their own ability to emote and carry

have fun and have joyous relationships. It's not possible to be like, is right, this is wrong. It's not. mean, even I am making mistakes in my daily life. Why is there space for compassion? If there's no space for compassion for myself, I would definitely not have it for others. So if somebody's judging, then there is a lack of compassion. So then therefore I feel bad for them, not for my community really. But of course, then we still live in the society and systems that are not serving

So that there is that difficulty, of course, that will always be. But in a sense, in a spiritual sense, really, I will always know the superiority of our women in terms of superiority, in terms of their greatness. You're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. After a quick break, let's come back to our conversation with Shweta Gupti. Stay tuned.

Abhay (37:26.931)
Every story told is a lesson learned and every lesson learned is a story waiting to be told. I'm Abhay Dhandekar and I share conversations with global Indians and South Asians so everyone can say, trust me, I know what I'm doing. New episodes weekly wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Abhay (37:50.293)
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Abhay (38:03.807)
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Hi there, I'm Abhay Dandekar and you're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. Let's rejoin our conversation now with the Director of Education for Kranti, Shweta Kutty. You yourself and of course many of the women and girls that you work with have suffered such trauma from men. And yet some of the most uplifting ladders of kindness and protection and giving have come from

men in this community, street vendors and community members who have been men who have been able to protect and uplift in that way. What do you think, in your opinion, has to structurally change to bring more of those men to light, to bring more allyship, to dismantle this idea of toxic masculinity within our society? I mean, I think the toxic masculinity harms just as...

the man just as much as it definitely, I mean, not just as much, of course. It's harmful all around. Yeah, exactly. It's harmful all around. And I think one thing that because I think growing up because of patriarchy and the way men are portrayed in our community, in our society, through media, you know, news, this and that, like powerful and somebody you need to feel validated by. Right. I think what happened for me in this journey is

they lost their power on me in terms of I no longer look for, I mean, because I am surrounded by strong women, women who are doing this work, the community that I came from, but also Robin, the person who's, you know, the founder of Karanti and other women who've come along in this journey to help us and support us. And so I have rejoiced and have been very happy in their companionship and friendship and mentorship and everything. And losing the, and at the same time, I think encountered amazing men.

Abhay (40:09.021)
along the journey who have supported and who've been there. that interaction has also been there and because men have also showed up for this work and for this community. at the same time, yeah, I mean, there is always fear. mean, I personally, I cannot speak for everyone else, but for me, there has been a lot of fear in the past. For example, walking into a room full of food.

of men, you know, and just the self-consciousness that comes up in the space with any shared with any men. But now I don't feel that way. I don't feel scared, intimidated by or, know, so and I think I that I'm really grateful for. Does the education that, of course, grantee provides for women, some of that, I mean, I wish and I hope that there are more movements for engagement to really.

destroy this kind of toxic masculinity. Like, it's like we both share that this is not good for anyone, but are there, you know, in doing this work, it sometimes feel like you're trying to, you know, really boil the ocean. And I'm wondering, like, how do you, how do you sometimes deal with the perception of having little hope or failure in this? mean, Robin seems like someone who doesn't necessarily, you know, aspires to, espouse to that at all. But at the same time, you know, these things take time. They, they take

incremental change and they're not you can't just snap your fingers and the ills of society go away. So I'm curious like in in a effort to whether it's building allyship with men and destroying toxic masculinity to even trying to rehabilitate or even rescue or for that matter educate as many girls and women as possible. How do you deal with just the sheer mass of this problem?

We make our women stronger and the girls strong. mean, because unfortunately, I mean, we've been, yeah, I mean, there have been changes. mean, the fact that you're addressing this, right? Like, I mean, I think a lot of men are also seeing that this is not for themselves. And I think a lot of men are treating women with respect. At the same time, there's still men who are not, you know, who don't understand and who, and I think our OnlyKantis only, I mean, we change people along the way.

Abhay (42:27.465)
But also I think our weapon is to make the women and the girls stronger and make them feel because I think this, and especially in our Indian society, like marriage and having a husband is such a big deal that taking away that, like, you know, that a man, it's like, you know, you can take care of yourself and you have women take care of yourself. And if you ever get end up in a difficult or abusive relationship, we will always have your back.

And we will help you navigate that because it's, mean, with mental health, it's always complicated. Very empowering to know that. Yeah. And, but I mean, yeah. And, and so we don't say like, it's not, for example, tics, right? Okay. Okay. Now this girl is empowered. She's not going to, it's not like that. It's a complex messy.

And we are constantly as humans and not only this community, but I think as humans, everyone's constantly exploring themselves, understanding themselves, the complexities of our minds or of our sense of being and our relationships and how we connect with what and how in what depth and in what toxicity or not, you know. And I think for what Grant is done really well is introduce spirituality and sense of inner well-being become the greatest part of our work.

that you need to be okay. Do you need to remind people of that ongoing evolution and the need for therapy? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a constant need for reminder. And me too. I mean, it's always a roller coaster and, you know, with things happening, the kind of things happening in the world, you always, you need to be reminded of what you're doing, why you're doing and...

that you are worthy, that you matter and you need to do this journey for yourself and others. And it's a journey. It's not like you reach there and it's done. It's not that. In the end, I'm imagining that Kranti itself, the women that you work with, the girls that are there are that fuel and energy that keeps reminding you also. Yeah. And I mean, the need for you to be well, because if you are well, then only can you provide that wellness to others. So that there's this constant cycle of that.

Abhay (44:43.569)
And I think what Kranti is also creating wonderfully is a sense of community for us, for the girls, for our women. Like no matter where you are in the world, you will always have this community. You'll always have this, you know. And I think that not a lot of people have in this world, even if you have a lot of money, a of, you know, a sense of understanding, a sense of knowing, a sense of being held is not, money can't, you know, it's community, no matter.

how much money you have or don't have. And I think that's Kranti does incredibly. And I think, which I'm really grateful for, and I will, I don't, I mean, and the same thing was in the community back home. So I think that is what my community has given me. Kranti continues to give me and I continue to aspire to create that for others. Let me ask you one final thought from my end. I was thinking about this when I was getting to learn a little bit more about you and Kranti and...

Of course, word granti means revolution and your name, Shweta, means in Sanskrit, at least, in finding purity through this revolution, what have you learned about building trust, both in yourself and in, of course, the others around you?

It has been a really long journey for me to do that. think I'm still in the space of, think only now do I feel like I'm learning to trust myself in sense. So in much more deeper sense where it's unshakable by anything else, because I am grounded in myself very deeply. So I think that trust is being built is also because, and that's privilege. It comes from the community that I have, the people that I have who are there no matter how.

the highs and lows that I have in life. And I think trust Robin really has showed me because she, somebody who showed up no matter where I was, how I was, she showed up. It was like, I will not give up on you. And that sense of her not giving up on me really instilled something inside. Like I can, I matter, continue, I can, you know, I matter. My journey matters and I can.

Abhay (46:56.002)
If somebody can do this for me, I can do this A for myself and B for somebody else. because of course, when you're unfortunately with the marginalized communities, I mean, of course there's resilience trend, but then there's also constantly having to look after yourself and the people that you care for constantly because the resources and that's what you take away. And although there are joys in little things, the food that is being shared across the hall, that at the same time I...

It's a privilege for me to let go of my fears. It's a privilege for me to have found a sense of safety and community, something that I trust so deeply because Rabin actually is working really hard to fundraise for Kranti. It's been a very difficult journey for Kranti to find funding and resource because people always question why so much is invested in such little numbers in the so many, such few girls. I mean, we also

In 2022 or 2023, we got kicked out of our rental home in Bombay. And then we were like, what to do now? mean, it happened in seconds. We didn't even realize and we were homeless for months. And then Robin found this place in Himachal that we're in Dharamshala Dharam Court. And last year she fundraised to pay for this house, which is four story building, now houses, 30 girls.

and sick staff and 30 girls who are already out in the world who come back for a break. almost like 60, 70 people. but, and in that process, she got breast cancer and she had to go through double mastectomy. And she still would like, you know, even having gone through all of that, she continues to work to provide financial safety for us. And I think she has helped me trust.

that somebody cares and because of that I matter and my work matters and we matter, my community matters. I imagine that that sense of privilege that you just mentioned in being able to trust yourself and of course it comes with a great cost and yet when people around you see how that translates to great giving and great outcomes and the things that you've been able to accomplish that

Abhay (49:19.6)
that trust in yourself must feel very infectious to the girls that you work with. And of course that comes with so much that you just mentioned. response. Like it also almost becomes my responsibility to live that way. What is it that I want my girls to, you know, the girls, mean, the girls that I'm, to take from me, right? Like, mean, and we model, mean, we've taken so much from Robin, right? And I think then that really, then always it is my...

Northern star, North star in terms of where I want to head, how I want to become, you know, because at the end what I am, what I do is what the girls will take, right? So I cannot, I mean, of course I allow myself when I'm not feeling well that there's sense of compassion, but then I cannot allow myself to just stay there and not be there for myself because when I show up for myself, I teach the girls to show up for themselves.

then I set a certain boundary, then I'm teaching them to learn how to set boundaries. this, I mean, it really then gives me the opportunity to work much more deeply with myself. So it really is, the work is really giving back to me in ways that I could never otherwise have received. Well, leading with trust, with power, with love, with compassion and so many other things. Deeply, deeply honored to share some time with you.

And so grateful for all the work that you're doing, that Grant is doing, and hopefully advancing for so many in this field. And most importantly, think, really raising so much awareness for everyone. you so much for joining today and really, really appreciated your time and for this conversation.

Thank you so much for, yeah, I loved our conversation. Thank you for being so open, so wanting to learn and understand genuinely and not just like you had, you were open and which I truly, truly appreciate. Thank you. Thanks so much, Shweta. And if you're listening or watching, please consider supporting Kranti through volunteering or donating in kind at kranti-india.org. And the links of course are in the show notes and on YouTube. Till next time, I'm Abhay Dhandekar.