TRUST ME I KNOW WHAT I'm DOING

My name is Melissa Mahtani. I'm an executive producer at CBS News Confirmed, and you're listening to Trust Me. I Know What I'm Doing.

Yeah. My name is Abhay Dandekar, and I share conversations with talented and interesting individuals linked to the global Indian and South Asian community.

It's informal and informative, adding insights to our evolving cultural expressions where each person can proudly say Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing.
Hi, everyone. On this episode of Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing, we share a conversation with journalist and producer Melissa Mahtani. Stay tuned. So you know what?

Thank you for listening and watching and making trust me I know what I'm doing part of your day. I know I say it every episode, but I really mean it as I know engaging with me here takes time and effort. Now here are the main points and that's the way it is. Just the facts and nothing but the facts. So, okay, these are seemingly corny and dated phrases, but it used to mean something to get data and facts from your trusted news source.

Those days were certainly a contrast from today's dizzying array of information and a universe of channels and options for your watching or listening or reading or streaming mind. Today, we live in a jungle like digital new space where there can be predators and prey, and you may have to figure out the difference between machine made AI news delivery and even wade through my personal favorite, the infamous alternative facts. You know, in a globally connected world where our time and effort on where to place our intelligence premium, finding the signal within all the noise can be a minute to minute challenge, especially in truly identifying the people who can actually deliver news and say with confidence, Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. So I was really glad to share some time with journalist Melissa Mahtani. Melissa is the executive producer of CBS News Confirmed, an initiative to identify, combat, and inform viewers of misinformation.

With roots in India, Melissa grew up in Zambia and has worked as a seasoned journalist across the world. Over 2 decades, she's been a reporter, a blogger, a moderator, and an anchor covering stories about human rights, gender equity, global affairs, and breaking news. For many years, she served as a senior producer at CNN, working with Fareed Zakaria, Erin Burnett, and Anderson Cooper, and helping launch shows and projects across all delivery platforms. She joined the CBS News Confirmed unit last spring to help use data and technology to verify and fact check questionable videos and reports and more importantly to help empower audiences by explaining the verification process. And as we caught up recently to dive into her own journey sifting through what's real and what's fake and how she cultivates trust in an AI driven world, I brought up a very real example that was on my mind about early reporting, especially around the loss of an icon.

I was thinking about our session, especially in the last few days, something that very personal and yet important in the art world happened, the passing of a incredible tabla artist, Zakir Hussain. And what struck me about this was on the day that he passed, of course, you know, many, many hours before, there were really lots and lots of reports of his death that were prematurely reported. And and, of course, it was finally confirmed by family and others much, much later on, but it was sort of a reminder of all the challenges that are out there in effectively reporting news and in in a way control what that effective reporting is. So why is it just so incredibly challenging to cultivate trust these days, especially with the speed, with the availability of information that's out there, and, of course, misinformation that's out there. Totally.

I mean and I know, you know, the example you're talking about, we we were following that. We were following that in in the hours before it was verified. And one thing, just people always have to remember when you're pausing on people that they are human beings. And can you imagine what it was like for their family to read prematurely that somebody they love has died? Like, there are real world consequences to what we do.

But to answer your question, you know, I think it's hard it's become harder for people to have trust because we live in echo chambers with social media, with, you know, the speed of information, and, actually, just with the proliferation and types of different information that you can get, we are really saturated. Sometimes people are trying to get be first, but, really, you know, it's becoming harder for people to trust what they see because there's so much of it that the onus is is now has to be on the person to actually go and check and verify what they're seeing is real or just make sure that they have a relationship with an organization that they can trust. And I think it's it's on us to try and restore that by being very transparent about how we verify what we verify so that people can begin to trust us again. Do when you were trying to establish that transparency and that honesty in reporting and particularly with the work you do, given the fact that you've been doing this for so long and and your experiences here, are there mechanisms for that transparency to be obvious to, in fact you know, do you have to call that out particularly so that audiences and people who are actually digesting this can cultivate that much more trust because they can they understand that it's a little bit more transparent that there are periods where that honesty is more obvious.

Because, otherwise, it's a very subtle thing that you have to just some switch goes off and says, yes. Well, I trust this person, I trust that person, or I trust that institution. Where do the kind of anchors lie here when it comes to that transparency, that honesty? Yeah. You know, it's funny.

I was at a party, this Christmas party this this weekend, and I was chatting to to a couple of friends. And they they said to me, they said, what's one thing you wish people knew about your job? And I said to them, you know, I wish more people understood the absolute amount of layers of verification that we have internally. The internal processes that we have to get things through standards, through legal, to make sure that we feel like our reporting is solid, that we've covered all angles, that, you know, we can be very confident in what we're saying. And it is such a process, you know, over absolutely everything.

And I wish people knew more of that because in that they would, by nature, have faith in what we do. I think, historically, they did because that was the role of the media. And what you have is especially in this country where you can have anybody can, start the YouTube channel, can buy a network. You know, there are no rules and regulations like there are in some other countries. You are so saturated with people just trying to get in front of you that the trust has been eroded, especially because people now we live in a very polarized world, and people are not trying to be the public information that the media once was, but they're trying to push a certain point of view.

To that end, the solution is we can and should. And one of the things that the confirmed team tries to do is show you, like, how the sausage is made and how we verified this, why, and bring you on that journey, something that we never needed to do before. But I don't think it hurts, and I think we can do more and more of it. Not just so people will trust us, but so people can do it themselves. I always say to my team that it's not good enough for us to just say this is true or this is false.

We need to show people how we came to that conclusion, and we need to teach them and empower them so that they can tell for themselves. And, honestly, I think that's the most crucial thing that any of us can be doing at the moment. You you know, that empowerment, of course, comes with many edges and layers to it. And in this area where we value that democratization, where you're right, everyone who has a camera, a phone, a YouTube channel, whether they have 50 layers or they have one layer, they have the opportunity to to share and for other people to therefore digest. So as a means for all to pursue truth, that might be wonderful and that democratization actually helps.

And yet, is this the is this the open source to disruption and chaos? Is there a dance that you constantly have to do with empowerment and control? I think I think it is more that people are are getting their information from different places. And so it's you're never actually working from sort of a baseline of fact or a baseline of truth that everybody can agree on because they would have seen this on whatever platform they're on, or they would have seen this slice of it, or they will have watched this report somewhere else. And so It's a moving target.

It it is a moving target. And I think that also the rise of the influencers per se or people who call themselves influencers on social media is difficult because people really do trust those people, but you don't know where they're getting their facts from, if they're being paid by organizations, why they're pushing a certain narrative. And the dance that you're talking about is really when somebody says something that is demonstrably false. By the time you're you've demonstrated that, the damage has been done. And so it's more of a race, and that's, again, why I think for us, you know, with all of this noise that is going on, it's easy for us to feel helpless.

And I say us, not just journalists, but, like, people in general. With all this chaos and confusion, the point is that we're hearing people say, I just don't know what to believe, so I don't believe anything anymore. And that's not right. When we come to empowerment, it's that if you can show people how they should tell for themselves or where to go for accurate information, people need to feel empowered and remember that they have agency. They have agency over what they read and what they watch.

I always say to people that your media diet is just like your physical diet. You know, it sounds very, very complicated, but when you and I think about, like, okay. I wanna eat well today, or I'm gonna go to the grocery store and I'm gonna buy an apple. We don't just take apples from strangers. We don't just pick up any apple.

We'll, like, look at it. We'll see if it's bruised. We'll see, like, how it compares to the other apples. It happens very quickly, and it's instinctive. And you almost need to be like that with your media.

You know, you need to look like, is is it true? Is it is it, you know, an organization that has a good reputation and has been reliable? Is, you know, somebody that I should trust? Let me check what all of the media is saying, and they can inform decision rather than just hearing something or sharing something without actually clicking in and getting all the context. And and yet we we live in a world where everything is has reviews, and it's Yelpified.

And I I may not buy an Apple because, the place I bought it has, like, one bad review or the other place that I might buy it has 25 great reviews. And it sort of has taken away a little bit of the instinctive trial and error that comes with this. And and with that then, I mean, you mentioned influencers. But with that all that backdrop in mind, do news institutions still matter the same way as they used to, especially in this era? And are we seeing a rise of, a maybe blend of news institutions, in fact, utilizing influencers and the power of of some of this shift in how we digest and and, quote, unquote, shop for our media?

No. I would like to think that news organizations matter even more than they did. Yeah. What I do think is that people's, media consumption habits have changed, and therefore, we need to change. One of the things I've always tried to do in my career is reach people where they're at.

So, you know, I started off in traditional television with beta SP tapes before digital was even a thing, and we were, like, physically cussing tape, right, a long time ago. And then digital came along, and then social came along. And I was always experimenting. You know, during that time, I I was with CNN, and and, you know, I launched their first, like, Instagram story. I launched shows on Facebook.

So the journalism you know, I I launched a podcast, but the journalism was always the same. It was always solid. It was just that we were using different ways to tell people because those were the different ways that people were consuming it. And I think that that will continue to change, but the actual media is super relevant. We just need to make sure that we are reaching people, you know, in in in in a, like, kind of a platform specific way wherever they get their news.

But, but, you know, I I I also will go back to think about the beginning, those beginning days of the COVID, you know, 19 pandemic. Everybody was searching for answers, and people were going to the news because, fundamentally, news in need are at its best. We are a public service. So, yes, there are are times where there is lots of noise, but in those really big moments, that's where that trust really needs to be cemented because we are actually impacting people's lives.

You're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing.

After a quick break, let's come back to our conversation with Melissa Mahtani. Stay tuned. Every story told is a lesson learned, and every lesson learned is a story waiting to be told. I'm Abhay Dandekar, and I share conversations with global Indians and South Asians so everyone can say, Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. New episodes weekly wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Hi. I'm Vivek Murthy. I'm the 21st surgeon general of the United States, and you're listening to Trust Me. I Know What I'm Doing. Hi.

I'm congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi. Hi. I'm Congressman Ro Khanna. I am congressman Sri Thanedar. Hi.

I'm congressman Ami Bera. Hi. I'm Suhas Subramanyam. Hi. I'm congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, and you are listening to Trust Me I Know What I'm Doing.

You're listening to Trust Me. I Know What I'm Doing. Let's rejoin our conversation now with journalist and producer Melissa Mahtani. Walk me through something because you you mentioned sort of, like, maybe a timeline of this and and how the the platforms or even the methods change.

But is there an anatomy to a story that, as you mentioned, there's so many layers and and the process can be, you know, incredibly cumbersome in order to make it trustworthy for the public to consume. But is there a common thread here? Is there a common anatomy to an effective, well sourced, and evidence based news story? Yes and no. Yes.

Because for us as journalists, like, our basic storytelling method is more or less the same. Right? You're looking to hear that something's happened. You're looking to, first of all, verify it to make sure that you've got a couple of people that can corroborate it. You know, you're looking for different sources, etcetera.

Those kind of fundamentals stay the same, but each story is different. How I'm gonna tell a story, for example, in a breaking news situation when we're just learning facts and, you know, things are going on, and god forbid, it's like a school shooting, which is top of mind because we've just had 1. Yeah. When when when facts are scarce versus something that is maybe a longer form where you're digging into something and trying to explain how it's changed. Like, each story is different.

You know? But I think that that that this the solid journalism and those skills don't change. It's just that we're being we're adapting them to each platform wherever the story is going. So, for example, like, a 5 minute investigative piece on TV is gonna look very, very different to, like, a 90 second social video. You know?

But Yeah. Mentally, the story and the tools to produce both are the same. Have as your career has cultivated this experience, have you at all learned to be that much more patient when it comes to ensuring that the concrete steps that are required to produce these pieces, whether it's a 5 minute segment or a 90, you know, second piece on social media, Has that patience served you well and and particularly trying to ensure that trust and and, you know, facts are at the at the core of all this? So, I mean, I think, yes yes, to a certain degree with with experience and more years in the media, you kind of get you kind of get used to it. And especially at this juncture or during the last election, we were we were taking extra steps to make sure that we were completely buttoned up and that we could Yeah.

Show that to the audience. You know? So we didn't wanna just tell them. We wanted to show them how. But I will say that, you know, really, if you ask any journalist, any producer, they will always be so impatient with with the editors, with Sanders, with the legal process because we're like, no.

It's a great story. We wanna get it out. And they're like, have you checked this? Have you thought about that? Yeah.

And it's Yeah. Like, constant tension, but those layers and those verification processes make us better journalists. And it goes back to what I was saying at the beginning. Like, I do wish that people knew how many layers there are because we go to great pains to make sure that what we are putting out and telling the public is is, you know, is so buttoned up, has been reported out, has been thoroughly vetted by so many people. How is how is and I'm I'm fascinated by this particular piece, but how is AI either lubricated the, the outcome of this, or for that matter disrupted these outcomes?

You know, AI is such an interesting topic. And I will say, first of all, the first thing is, like, we have just had a huge election. And and not just here in this country, but this year, 2024, was, like, year of elections. Right? In in January of 2024, all of us were saying, oh, look at the role of AI, and look at this in all these elections around the world.

The threats of the deep fakes and the AI generated content, of course, there were some there, but it was by no means what we thought it was going to be. If anything, we saw that it was way simpler methods. It was just news shared out of context. You know, news that was, like, videos that was slowed down or, again, like, chopped in half things that we were calling cheap fakes that really, really made an impact. So I think, yes, AI is super important, but it's nowhere near that scary bogeyman that we were making it out to be.

Yeah. I think that AI is both a blessing and a curse. You know, I think AI first of all, we'll just, you know, differentiate between AI and generative AI. So AI tools can be incredibly helpful, and we've been using them for ages when we transfer interviews. When, you know, we all use predictive text or in our emails, and they can be helpful, you know, in in that way.

Generative AI is a different beast. I think that I compare it very much to, like, nuclear. Right? So Yeah. Nuclear power can be incredibly powerful and useful if used in the right way with the appropriate guardrails and the right intent.

But nuclear power can also be used to create bombs, and it can be very dangerous, you know, in the wrong hands. Yeah. And this is generative AI. It is gonna be that next frontier that we're bracing in terms of, sort of post truth world that people are dubbing it because you can very, very quickly create images, create videos, that make it incredibly hard to tell what's true and what's not. Now we can tackle that very responsibly with other tools, but it's this consistent race between, like, what we're trying to do with guardrails, what the technology is doing, how we're catching up.

And, again, it depends whose hands it's in and what the intent behind it is. And so I think it's gonna be really, really interesting to to see how that plays out and if there are regulations put in place, but it comes back to the trust in the people who are putting the regulations in place. I almost wonder if we're gonna start label labeling things as 100% human versus, you know, whether or not there's any kind of machine involvement in all of this and whether or not that will actually have an impact on what we consume or not. You and I are we connect some dots here as Global South Asians. And and I'm just so curious for you.

How has your own story as a Global South Asian how is that Global South Asian story informed some of your work, particularly as a journalist, having gone through so many versions of what journalism is over the years? You know, I think that the one thing that I I always come back to is that people are people and that there is more that unites us and divides us. Right? And, I mean, I've lived and worked in lots of many different countries. You live in, you know, different communities or when you're from a different background, you can see that there's so much of humans that are the same across these big borders.

And sometimes it's missed, especially in here in the US. I feel like we sometimes when where, you know, when I when you work internationally, news is more international, right, just because the world kind of is. And here, there is that difference. And I think that there's we kind of seem to see ourselves and others as this othering, if you like. And I think that we need we need to connect the dots for people.

At least that's what I've always tried to do. Again, you know, like, how we feel here for for when we're talking about women's rights, it's the same in other countries. When we talk about climate change or, like, wars and scarcity, it's same here as it is for people over there. Like, we're all fundamentally the same, and I think that all people want to be seen, heard, and treated with dignity, and we really need to connect those common bonds between us and and listen to people. So just we start off this interview talking about you and your role as a doctor and how you listen to your patients, and that's one of the most important things that you can do.

It's the same thing in this polarized that we're living in here. It's like people just want to be listened to. They want to feel that they can connect. And, the more that we can do that and the more that we can show how similar we all are, I think that that's one thing I would really, really like to do, and that's one thing that's informed every story that I've ever told. No.

And you're right. I mean, trying to help unwind that tribalism that that happens as a baseline, and, you know, it's one thing to be proud of your identity of of what your background is, and and you can oftentimes be at at high risk of losing that connection of what really bonds us all as humans. I'm I'm thinking a little bit about for you perhaps what in that with that backdrop, what you've had to maybe unlearn about yourself in keeping that top of mind, in finding success through evidence with the work the important work that you do and the stakes that are involved as well. Are there particular lessons or or for that matter unlearnings about yourself that you've you've really taken stock of over the years? So, you know, I had a very interesting upbringing.

I, I was born in London, but I grew up in Zambia or in Africa and then, traveled around and had, grandparents who were from India and then have lived in Europe and then moved here. So I think I think I've been so lucky to see how different people operate in different communities. You know, I've been able to infiltrate a lot of them, which has helped a lot of my work when I'm trying to report on different communities to understand that. But I've also come to appreciate how different communities and people perceive information. And if anything, that has always helped me think about how is the story that I'm trying to tell going to resonate not just with people who are around me, but with people who aren't, with people who don't have a baseline of what I'm reporting on and people who are very informed.

And I always feel that each story should kind of reach everyone. So I think it's incredibly helpful in that sense. I think that for a long time and not so much now, but definitely in my late twenties thirties, you have this kind of issue of identity. Like, where do I belong? Because you become, like, this global citizen.

And, you know, and I think that's just part of sort of growing up and gaining experience in your work and in who you are to to realize that that can actually be, like, you know, we are our own home. Is that We we call that we call that reclaiming yourself as an adult, as you transition from adolescence. But it can be. You know, when you when you're living in different places, when you're not, you know, close to the communities like you grew up in or have those safety nets Sure. You can kind of get lost.

One thing that I found very different when I first moved to the States 10 years ago is here everyone has a label. You know, there was Yeah. TV that is set in community watches or, you know and it was labeled as such or the way that people spoke about other people was, was very blatant. You know, that's not how I grew up in in in England. And especially when I was in Africa, like, you know, they're just your friends if they don't have an alternative before what type of friend they are, you know, or how nationality or ethnicity they are.

Yeah. And it was it was very interesting to kind of be an outsider to kind of understand how and why, you know, and then again, sort of like bridge divides. But, but, yeah, there's a learning curve to everywhere that that you live and then finding your place within it. Do you find that those learning curves get, steeper and steeper, but that you're able to navigate them better and better because of that background, because you grew up in a way that, where there there weren't these labels automatically placed, and you now can you have that you can step back a little bit and and perhaps see through some of that and and find proper connection. Does that does that help in a way relate a little bit more humanness to the stories that you present?

Definitely to the stories because I feel like there's parts of me that could always identify with somebody in in the stories, you know, as a woman, as as a person who's lived in different places, a certain background, or, you know, my old life experience, and being an empath. But, I think I think, you know, it goes back to me saying that, fundamentally, I think that people are people, and you just see somebody, without any of those adjectives around them, and you just are able to really see somebody as as yourself. And I wonder if that, makes a a impact particularly with some of the reporting that you've done in the past and some of the stories that you you've put out there particularly related back to human rights and equality and gender based issues and social justice. Does that framework allow you to be that much more objective? And, again, take away this and and this gets magnified, of course, with election cycles and politics and, take away that blur between fact based journalism and creating a narrative and, you know, creating stories out there for a for perhaps not always the best intentions.

I think at least in my work, you know, obviously, now I'm working in a misinformation space here with CBS News confirmed. But before, hon, I was working in international news and and a lot of human stories and a lot of women's stories and a lot of women's rights and, as you said, democracy. I think that everything that we do is fact based, you know, as as journalists, and what we're trying to do is is dig deeper and and really raise the voices of those that are underrepresented. And that's for example, you know, when I'm talking about women's rights or I'm talking about democracy, we're looking at, like, Afghanistan. Women cannot sing.

They cannot raise their voice. And so I do feel that it's, you know, it's it's on, obviously, journalists and and and women journalists to be able to raise their voices or keep those stories Mhmm. Current because, you know, it's it's those those people don't have that luxury. Y

ou're listening to Trust Me. I Know What I'm Doing.

After a quick break, we'll come back to our conversation with journalist and the executive producer of CBS News confirmed, Melissa Mahtani. Stay tuned. Conversation. It's the antidote to apathy and the catalyst for relationships. I'm Abhay Dandekar, and I share conversations with global Indians and South Asians so everyone can say, trust me.

I know what I'm doing. New episodes weekly wherever you listen to your podcasts. Hi. I'm music recording artist, Sid Sriram, and you're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. Hi.

This is Madhur Dixit. Hi. This is Farhan Akhtar. Hi. This is Vidya Balan, and you're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing.

I'm Abhay Dandekar, and you're listening to Trust Me, I Know What I'm Doing. Let's rejoin our conversation now with journalist Melissa Matani. I'm curious about one thing in your particular story. What compelled you to pursue such a unique opportunity with CBS, specifically targeting misinformation? So first of all, I think that, you know, the initiative of this large organization coming together to really dedicate a unit to fighting misinformation, I found really remarkable because misinformation, disinformation, it is the story of our time.

And, obviously, in this year that, where there were so many elections in the world, where democracy was on the line in so many different countries, it felt really important. And it was also a huge opportunity to use my expertise in very different platforms and different ways of storytelling. I didn't start off in traditional TV and move to social and audio and news lessons and other ways to really try to reach people, in many different ways, but teaching them and empowering them for you know, to be able to teach themselves how to tell what's real and what's not. So it was a great opportunity to be able to do so many different things, but to really make impact. And I think at the core of every single thing I've done, throughout my journalistic life, and my life in general is really you're trying to make impact.

You're trying to reach people with news that they need, with news that they can use, so that they can have, you know, that they have the tools that they need to be able to make wise decisions. I do very firmly believe that a well informed electorate is the cornerstone to a democracy, and a democrat you know, democratic values is something that I think a lot of people take for granted here because they've never had to fight for them. I knew at what was saying in Africa. I've lived and reported a lot on human rights, and I think when you talk to those people and you see those struggles and the difference that a democracy really does make in people's lives, It's you know, we all want freedom. We all want to live in dignity.

We all want justice. And, it's a big part of what journalists do, holding truth to power. It it's a it provides such a completely different substrate and, backdrop for for how not only people live their lives, but they consume information and and and definitely provide such an impact for the work you do. I I'm thinking of all the different layers and rigors that that you go through and being in in part of a unit that is specifically designed to combat misinformation. Do you ever leave even a finished product yet still thinking that there is an element of disbelief to what you're putting out there.

You know, I mean, sometimes I we in, the parallel that I can make in the medical profession is is that, like, I have all this evidence. I'm making a diagnosis for a patient, and yet I still don't believe it. Are are you are you ever left with that kind of feeling that, like, yes, boy, we've we've put a story through all the standards. We've fact checked twice, 3 times, 4 times, and and yet there still is either some awe or some disbelief in that particular product. I think it's not that the way that I would, phrase it for stories that are like that, we would never say that we've got some sort of definitive conclusion.

It would be more like, here's what we know. So here are the facts that we know, and then here's the stuff that we don't know. Because in some of those cases, there will still be stuff that we don't know, but we can tell you what we do. You know? Yeah.

Then give you the questions. Because, again, I don't I I just don't think that you can tell people that this is this is this or this is that. It's more like, here are the facts. Here's how you should determine it for yourselves, and we'll show you what we've got. You know?

But it's then up to them to to to interpret that how they like. There are some things, you know, that I can say that this is black or this is white. Now, unfortunately, in the world that we live in today, people will still maybe, you know, argue with that. So Right. But, again, it's showing how we came to that conclusion.

What we know is real. I mean, if if something is a 100% data proof, then it then it's data proof, but we would give the dates and we would show them how how we got there. I guess I'm thinking of, you know, stories like, you know, there are weather related things where look at look at this. It's New York City. It's Christmas Day, and it's, like, 85 degrees outside, and you can't really argue with that.

And yet, boy, it's about as disbelieving as it gets. You know, I think that's more that people a lot of people are sitting on social media looking for ways to have fun. Sometimes it starts out innocently, and they may make a witty comment, or they may say something like, oh, you know, and it kind of spirals and gets out of hand. Yeah. Where it's like that at that point, when with stories like that, we're like, okay.

Well, don't read about what it's like outside. Look out the window and tell for yourself. Right? It always comes back to, like, empowering the person to be able to tell for themselves or to be able to understand how we got there. Now You you know?

And and with that same piece, right, there's there's a a very much a a reality element here. Right? Like you said, look out the window and experience it for yourself. In an age, I mean, we've we've come full circle with with chatting about this where there's information out there. There's rigors to providing that information.

There's AI and generative AI and and how this sort of informs what we do and how we, you know, digest that information. When you start thinking about the relationships that you build and the vehicles for those relationships for trust, what's your message for those who are consciously trying to combat futility and apathy in in that effort to really sort of look outside and experience for themselves and and be very, intentional and thoughtful about how they gather information. How how do people combat that apathy and that futility that sometimes can be a part of this? I think it's a huge part of it. And I think, you know, when people think about misinformation, they think about somebody just putting out bad information.

But, actually, what I think we're seeing is is people just trying to sow confusion. So say, for example, the example you gave of it being 85 degrees and beautiful, but it's Christmas day, It's like you see people saying, oh, it's so cold, and then other people saying, oh, it's so hot. And they're just trying to create this confusion so that you're like, I don't know what to believe, and you switch up. And it is you know, it's really hard. It comes back to, as you said, people feeling apathetic, people feeling helpless.

And what I want to do is is to just keep empowering people to say you have agency. Stop listening to the noise, and just learn these basic tools so that you can tell for yourself. You know? Because they want you to feel like it's helpless and you can't believe anything in AI. Everything could be AI.

So there's no way until it's real. So I'm just gonna say that it's AI and, like, oh, I believe this person because I'm deciding to. It's like, well, there's some checks and balances out there that are very, very simple, and you can go and learn for yourself. You know? And it comes back to that media diet.

So you wanna make sure that you you have reliable sources of information. You wanna check the dates on things that you're seeing on social media. You wanna check the location of where things are said. You wanna click into articles you see and read the context. Don't share things out of context.

It is one of those most simple things. You know, it could have been like a headline that has been chosen saying, it's raining on Christmas, and that's all you're seeing, but then what's been cut out is, you know, in 1843. Right. An old article that you're not seeing. So it's really important to click into things to check that and to also check what other media is saying so you're not ever relying on one source.

Social media, you don't know who's being paid to say what. And a lot of times, you've gotta just, like, keep yourself in check and check your emotions because often it's confirmation bias. You are looking for things to confirm what you want it to be, and this isn't necessarily the weather. But if you feel like something's good or bad, you're actively searching for things that will confirm that for you. And I think people need to just pause, take a moment, and be like, this is what I'm hearing.

I wanna check for myself. I'm gonna go and check various sources. I'm gonna go and speak to people. You know? But science is important.

Data is important. Those kind of numbers don't lie. And Yeah. And and we are here trying to be a resource for people and trying to show you how we've come to this conclusion. You know, and and people people have power.

People have agency, and they need to stop being in this back seat feeling like everything's being, like, told to them and take their power back and say, like, no. I'm choosing my media diet just like I'm choosing my actual diet, like I've been saying to you. You know? And it's not if we wanna live in a world where we can trust media, then then let's go out and get that. You know?

Hold tech companies to account. Make people label things that are AI. Like, again, it comes from consumers wanting this and putting the onus on the other companies to deliver it. As more and more people are are then making those choices and as you said, you know, choosing their their media diet, with the work that you're doing and and now in 2025, and I'll get you out of here on this one, what is bringing you joy and optimism in this work? In a world where we're constantly combating things and we're constantly trying to stave off misinformation in the work that you're doing and providing agency for for those who are consuming it, what is it that's that's bringing you joy and optimism as as you move ahead?

That's a very tough question. I I and I wanted to leave with that because, you know, you you live in a world where there's not a lot of, you know, silver linings and daylight sometimes. So I'm I'm curious where you refresh and replenish and and find rest restoration, if you will, in work that's so so challenging. You know, I think one of the nice things is seeing people come together. So this is something that we've seen communities you know, people I have seen that our work will make a difference because people are gonna begin to think for themselves.

So people are also taking time to switch off from phones and and news and get outside. And, you know, there is a bigger push for mental health for people to look after themselves, and I think that that's really important. I do think that people are actively seeking out responsible journalism because there is a lot of noise out there. And, and there's a lot more focus in this country, I think, to local news, and we're seeing that local journalists can really make impact in their communities. And I think that's really, really important.

But I think there's a lot of challenges ahead. I think there's a lot of challenges in the polarized society that we live in, but there are a lot of good people out there who are trying to bring people together, who are trying to build bridges, you know, not walls, and that is encouraging. I look at, young people today who are out there and and trying to bring change and trying to bring communities together and media literacy organizations, which are going into schools and trying to teach people again to tell fact from fiction. And I think that it's great. The one thing that gives me hope is to see my team doing incredible work, coming up with incredible ideas of how we can reach people and trying to make impact and and not giving up.

Well, whether it's, having people have that agency and building bridges and making more community around themselves, but particularly seeking out trusted sources, Melissa, we're very grateful for all the work you're doing and so grateful that you were able to spend some time with us. I hope we can visit with you again down the road. Would love that. Thank you. Thanks again, Melissa.

As you may know, I live near Berkeley and in the Bay Area. But born and raised in LA and having worked as a pediatrician and first responder during several disasters, my heart and soul are with the city of angels, which is recovering through community support, love, and resilience. Please take a moment to consider donating to the American Red Cross, mutual aid, various go fund me efforts, save the children, and baby to baby. Till next time, I'm Abhay Dandekar.